Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Tangled Metal
Posts: 5347
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Tangled Metal » 17 Jul 2019, 3:26pm

Nobody remembers the positive only the negative. This is especially true concerning motorists and cyclists.

Good service wins a couple of new customers, bar service loses 10 new potential customers.

It's a known effect, we're a negative species!

brooksby
Posts: 315
Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:02am
Location: Bristol

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby brooksby » 17 Jul 2019, 4:20pm

poetd wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Hmmm, interesting point. What is your view on horse-boxes? They can get in the way and slow me down when I'm driving.


False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.


You do realise that you've basically just said, "Bicycles are smaller and therefore less important so they should bow down before their motorised overlords!"...?

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13261
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 4:20pm

Tangled Metal wrote:You're right there but since when do motorists ever apply that much space? Real world there is passing space but you're likely to be closer than 1.5m gap.

Real world, that's not safe and it's completely unacceptable to criticise cyclists for not singling out and encouraging passholes to put them in danger.

Tangled Metal wrote:[...] However I personally have rarely met cyclists on that road. Why ride it when there's some much nicer roads cross country? It's a cyclist's death trap with the way motorists drive it.

Maybe it's shorter or their origin or destination is on that road? I feel we need to tackle the bad driving and probably make what changes we can to make such roads less hazardous for cycling, but there seems to be no stomach to do either, even among some cyclists. It's much easier to say cyclists should single out or pull over or allow themselves to be bullied off that road.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

brooksby
Posts: 315
Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:02am
Location: Bristol

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby brooksby » 17 Jul 2019, 4:21pm

Spinners wrote:Perhaps we're talking about two different things here.

I regularly see POB's go up to a steady red light and either ride straight on or turn left. I never see motorists do this.

However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


But you're supposed to stop on amber, unless you're going to endanger other road users...

poetd
Posts: 38
Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 17 Jul 2019, 4:27pm

brooksby wrote:
poetd wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Hmmm, interesting point. What is your view on horse-boxes? They can get in the way and slow me down when I'm driving.


False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.


You do realise that you've basically just said, "Bicycles are smaller and therefore less important so they should bow down before their motorised overlords!"...?



Not at all. Just saying they should treat others they share the road with with courtesy and friendliness. A heretical and revolutionary idea it seems, but who knows... one day it might just catch on!

(and just because others aren't friendly and courteous is no excuse, be the better person - be the change you want to see).

brooksby
Posts: 315
Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:02am
Location: Bristol

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby brooksby » 17 Jul 2019, 4:29pm

poetd wrote:
brooksby wrote:
poetd wrote:
False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.


You do realise that you've basically just said, "Bicycles are smaller and therefore less important so they should bow down before their motorised overlords!"...?



Not at all. Just saying they should treat others they share the road with with courtesy and friendliness. A heretical and revolutionary idea it seems, but who knows... one day it might just catch on!

(and just because others aren't friendly and courteous is no excuse, be the better person - be the change you want to see).


When a motorist treats me in a friendly and courteous manner, even letting me out of a side road or something, then I'll consider it.

As it stands, IMO, if its the cyclists being friendly and courteous then the motorists just take it as their right and don't consider changing their own behaviour...

LollyKat
Posts: 2843
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby LollyKat » 17 Jul 2019, 4:43pm

Spinners wrote:I maintain that I've never seen any motorist go up to a (already on) red light and then go through or turn left. Sadly, I've seen POB's do this as recently as yesterday.


I saw this last Friday afternoon in Hope Street, Glasgow - this is a busy one-way, four-lane street in the city centre grid, criss-crossed by several other streets with traffic lights. I was going straight on and had been waiting for about half a minute when a black hatchback drove at normal speed straight through the light. A few seconds later another car did the same. I was astonished as all the buildings are tall and solid so very difficult to see traffic conditions in the cross streets - they were just lucky nothing was coming. All the lights in this stretch are single, i.e. no filters.

User avatar
Spinners
Posts: 1329
Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Spinners » 17 Jul 2019, 5:09pm

brooksby wrote:
Spinners wrote:Perhaps we're talking about two different things here.

I regularly see POB's go up to a steady red light and either ride straight on or turn left. I never see motorists do this.

However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


But you're supposed to stop on amber, unless you're going to endanger other road users...


I'm well aware of that thank you and mention it in this very thread.
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

User avatar
Spinners
Posts: 1329
Joined: 6 Dec 2008, 6:58pm
Location: Port Talbot

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Spinners » 17 Jul 2019, 5:13pm

LollyKat wrote:
Spinners wrote:I maintain that I've never seen any motorist go up to a (already on) red light and then go through or turn left. Sadly, I've seen POB's do this as recently as yesterday.


I saw this last Friday afternoon in Hope Street, Glasgow - this is a busy one-way, four-lane street in the city centre grid, criss-crossed by several other streets with traffic lights. I was going straight on and had been waiting for about half a minute when a black hatchback drove at normal speed straight through the light. A few seconds later another car did the same. I was astonished as all the buildings are tall and solid so very difficult to see traffic conditions in the cross streets - they were just lucky nothing was coming. All the lights in this stretch are single, i.e. no filters.


What do you think? Deliberate or distracted? I despair everytime I see TV adverts for the latest 'connected' car :roll:
Cycling UK Life Member
PBP Ancien (2007)

poetd
Posts: 38
Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 17 Jul 2019, 5:55pm

brooksby wrote:
poetd wrote:
When a motorist treats me in a friendly and courteous manner, even letting me out of a side road or something, then I'll consider it.

As it stands, IMO, if its the cyclists being friendly and courteous then the motorists just take it as their right and don't consider changing their own behaviour...


I get that. I do.
But if we all wait for the next guy to do the decent thing first, we could all be waiting a long time. An eye for an eye just leaves the world blind.

Some day I lose 5-10 minutes slowing at choke points to let cars through (often acknowledged, often not), stopping before junctions to let cars in and out etc.
The way I see it is this - typical Audi douche driving along: "Bloody cyclists, think they own the road ... blah blah" - sees me pulling over to let him past at a choke spot might just change to "Ok, well at least not all of them are like that" - naive perhaps, but I'd count that as a massive win. That's just me.

I have "friends" who have deliberately targetted cyclists (aiming for handlebars with wing mirrors, driving up right behind them, that kind of thing), because they've built up this mental hatred of them. If I can change just a handful of that. Then I'm going to try.

(ps, fully justified in the Audi comment based on my time living in the countryside).

brynpoeth
Posts: 10524
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Jul 2019, 6:21pm

poetd, sorry, you are a cyclist and hate cyclists?

I note that you live in 'The Motorway City of the Seventies', is that significant? :?
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13261
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 6:27pm

poetd wrote:The way I see it is this - typical Audi douche driving along: "Bloody cyclists, think they own the road ... blah blah" - sees me pulling over to let him past at a choke spot might just change to "Ok, well at least not all of them are like that" - naive perhaps, but I'd count that as a massive win. That's just me.

I suspect they're far more likely to think "hah! I bullied that one into letting me through!" and then launch into another frothy rant as soon as another perfectly law-abiding cyclist won't be cowed into doing the same.

We've spent decades letting motorists push cycling to the kerb, sometimes with government help. It doesn't work. However much road you give motorists, they always want more more more. When do we point out that a cyclist is at least as valid a road user as a motorist? Arguably more valid, as cycling is more space-efficient, less polluting, less damaging to the roads, better for public health, there by right not licence (as are walkers and riders) and not so harmful to others that insurance is near-compulsory.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

poetd
Posts: 38
Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 17 Jul 2019, 6:55pm

brynpoeth wrote:poetd, sorry, you are a cyclist and hate cyclists?

I note that you live in 'The Motorway City of the Seventies', is that significant? :?



Heh. :)

Not all cyclists no. But I do see a lot of Red light jumpers in Leeds. More than I thought I would.

Todays example was questionable - I'll let others decide:

Going uphill towards a major supermarket with the main entrance on my left. Behind me there's a young girl in full lycra trying to catch me for a while, but she's a good 20-30 meters behind me.
To my right I see an MPV slow and wave me past the entrance to the supermarket, I give a wave of thanks and put down a little more power to get out their way quicker.

In my head I knew what was coming before it even happened.

Still checking my shoulder I see the MPV pulling into the supermarket behind me, then I heard the shout and the beep.
Racer girl had decided she was going to squeeze past the MPV too.

As far as I could tell, everyone was ok, there were no crunch sounds. Racer girl passed me and carried on up the hill.
I looked up and saw she had on some nice looking pro type gear, but it was gravel gray, the same colour as the road!
Obviously the MPV just didn't see her and turned in on her.

Now, not telling anyone what to wear, totally up to them, but use a bit of common sense surely?
I guess she assumed the MPV had seen her (I never take any chance based on assumption, but that's an age thing, lessons learned the hard way and all that).

So was she at fault or the MPV? Or was it my fault?

She should really have anticipated that the MPV was just letting me pass and at least slowed down ready to stop if she had to. I'm not criticising her choice of atire, but I certainly wouldn't pick those colours when riding in rush hour traffic.
The MPV could of course have done a better job of double checking before turning in.

But was my high vis the reason the MPV thought it was safe to turn in? They saw no more bright yellow behind me and so thought the coast was clear.

I'm not sure, maybe a mix of all 3 to be honest.

I reckon about half or more of the rush I cyclists I see are in either high vis or bright visible colours, just makes sense to me.
Not saying it should be mandatory at all, but you know motorists aren't looking out for you in general anyway, so why not go at least brighter than gravel grey to give them something of a chance?

User avatar
Wanlock Dod
Posts: 438
Joined: 28 Sep 2016, 5:48pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Wanlock Dod » 17 Jul 2019, 7:22pm

poetd wrote:But was my high vis the reason the MPV thought it was safe to turn in? They saw no more bright yellow behind me and so thought the coast was clear

It could just as easily be a case of somebody who has been trained not to bother looking for vulnerable road users properly by lots of cyclists donning very bright colours.
When I am out on the roads I don’t have any trouble spotting people on bikes, even when they are still a long way off, but I am actively looking for them and certainly not expecting them to notify me of their presence. Looking and seeing just seems to be common sense to me, especially if in control of a potentially dangerous machine.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13261
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 8:22pm

poetd wrote:So was she at fault or the MPV? Or was it my fault?

Ultimately none of those. It was the fault of the MPV's driver. I don't understand why there is any doubt over this, so fear you have swallowed the H&H con hook, line and sinker :(
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.