Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
mattheus
Posts: 700
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mattheus » 19 Jul 2019, 9:11am

kwackers wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:I hate PoBs who go too fast

Let me guess. Anyone going faster than you is too fast, and slower than you is holding you up?


The late American comic George Carlin first commented on this with respect to drivers:

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

He said some other wise stuff, like this:
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17085
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Jul 2019, 9:25am

Tangled Metal wrote:One for Kwackers.

My local junction, the one I posted about / whinged about earlier, can easily beat your record for time on red hat a car jumped the lights by.

One classic case was when I read at the side, on demand part of that staggered, two light sets junction. I was on the first light. My direction light when green, a sixth sense told me to wait and not proceed. I did that and watched a classic MG sports car drive through red at about 30 seconds doing about 10mph over the speed limit of 30mph by my estimation.

So glad I didn't have an MG in my drivers side of the car. I was about to proceed at 45s in red and had to brake when a second MG sped through. A third went through and I had to back into the road to wait for the next green light cycle.

Anyone know how long lights stay on red? I think at that time it was in excess of 2 minutes. The last car went through on red the it changed to red on my side. I think that's a real record.

Its true as well. If you doubt it you're welcome to experience this junction. They've changed the lights sequence at least 4 times trying to make it safer. It's a lot safer than original sequence but that's not the issue. The issue is the supermarket side of the junction is not in a safe position. Two sets of lights for motorists to look at on a downhill. Not a bright idea. IMHO the supermarket entrance should be made from another road.

I don't blame motorists. I blame road designers, supermarket designers, council planning department and councillors who passed the application without a safe junction.


That one does sound like there is a problem with the junction design. Going downhill isn't necessarily the problem. Although they often establish supermarket entrances where it is cheapest, rather than safest.

It might be solved with visual cues, or a change in the approach to the junction (i.e. road narrowing, addition of a signalised crossing away form the junction, etc.)

There is a junction near me that seems to invite RLJ from both directions. There is a reasonably good shared use pavement on both sides of the road, and quiet, filtered roads parallel, so there are seldom cyclists in the road, but there are well-used crossings on two arms of the junction. They redesigned it a couple of years ago, and I was under the impression that they were going to make safety improvements, but part of the project got binned (including cycle / bus lanes; unforutnately that happens, here , as well) and most of the junction improvements seem to have gone, as well. :(

I guess they will be forced to do something when there is a serious RTC there. I hope they do something about before then.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 17085
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Jul 2019, 9:26am

Oldjohnw wrote:I really do not know why we have to use the word hate in relation to people who are different to ourselves.

I totally agree. That was the first thing I thought when I first saw this thread.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

mattheus
Posts: 700
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mattheus » 19 Jul 2019, 9:50am

tatanab wrote:
poetd wrote:??? Did I get it right? :)
As one of the original responders to you, let me say I am pleased you have retained a sense of humour after all this. I hope you will post on less contentious issues.

Perhaps we need a couple more separated subjects in the same way a we do with helmets. The subjects would be RLJ and dogs. These two subjects come up every few weeks and just rehash the same old arguments time after time. Separate areas would allow new posters to see that it has all been done before. That is a bit tongue in cheek since I know it will not happen.


Completely agree on all points!

And while we're making slightly tongue-in-cheek suggestions:
- a separate sub-forum for "use of the word Hate".

:wink:

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5571
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jul 2019, 10:00am

Vorpal wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:One for Kwackers.

My local junction, the one I posted about / whinged about earlier, can easily beat your record for time on red hat a car jumped the lights by.

One classic case was when I read at the side, on demand part of that staggered, two light sets junction. I was on the first light. My direction light when green, a sixth sense told me to wait and not proceed. I did that and watched a classic MG sports car drive through red at about 30 seconds doing about 10mph over the speed limit of 30mph by my estimation.

So glad I didn't have an MG in my drivers side of the car. I was about to proceed at 45s in red and had to brake when a second MG sped through. A third went through and I had to back into the road to wait for the next green light cycle.

Anyone know how long lights stay on red? I think at that time it was in excess of 2 minutes. The last car went through on red the it changed to red on my side. I think that's a real record.

Its true as well. If you doubt it you're welcome to experience this junction. They've changed the lights sequence at least 4 times trying to make it safer. It's a lot safer than original sequence but that's not the issue. The issue is the supermarket side of the junction is not in a safe position. Two sets of lights for motorists to look at on a downhill. Not a bright idea. IMHO the supermarket entrance should be made from another road.

I don't blame motorists. I blame road designers, supermarket designers, council planning department and councillors who passed the application without a safe junction.


That one does sound like there is a problem with the junction design. Going downhill isn't necessarily the problem. Although they often establish supermarket entrances where it is cheapest, rather than safest.

It might be solved with visual cues, or a change in the approach to the junction (i.e. road narrowing, addition of a signalised crossing away form the junction, etc.)

There is a junction near me that seems to invite RLJ from both directions. There is a reasonably good shared use pavement on both sides of the road, and quiet, filtered roads parallel, so there are seldom cyclists in the road, but there are well-used crossings on two arms of the junction. They redesigned it a couple of years ago, and I was under the impression that they were going to make safety improvements, but part of the project got binned (including cycle / bus lanes; unforutnately that happens, here , as well) and most of the junction improvements seem to have gone, as well. :(

I guess they will be forced to do something when there is a serious RTC there. I hope they do something about before then.

No space for shared use paths around it. It's a small town surrounded by 100 year old houses, a few industrial premises / garages and on the main road through the town (A6).

Not a wide road, indeed it's barely wide enough for trucks to pass each other. When the M6 is blocked it has tailbacks they go down this road in convoy.

Basically the only thing to do is mess about with the light timings and order. They've done just about all they can do with that. If anything can be done it'll mean a complete redesign of the access to the supermarket. Namely moving the approach to another side. That would possibly force the supermarket to close I reckon. It simply won't happen.

Locals compensate for the danger now. It's been there, like this with light sequence tinkering, for over 10 years. I admit I have never heard of accidents causing ksi. I think that's purely because locals know it's dangerous and compensate for it. Kids don't do that so well. I've seen parents pulling young kids from in front if RLJing cars. I've had to physically jump out of the way of speeding RLJing cars before now.

Seriously, it's the local knowledge of the dangers that prevents accidents there not road design. Local councillors know it but also know LCC will never free up the money or have the political inclination to go up against one of the biggest supermarket chains to get change to entrance.
Last edited by Tangled Metal on 19 Jul 2019, 11:53am, edited 1 time in total.

kwackers
Posts: 13418
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby kwackers » 19 Jul 2019, 10:16am

Tangled Metal wrote:It's a small town surrounded by 100 year old horses, a few industrial premises / garages and on the main road through the town (A6).

You don't see that very often!

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5571
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Tangled Metal » 19 Jul 2019, 11:52am

kwackers wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:It's a small town surrounded by 100 year old horses, a few industrial premises / garages and on the main road through the town (A6).

You don't see that very often!

Autoconfuses changed houses to horses. Whilst bear grylls might be able to live in a hollowed out dead camel I doubt any of the people living near the supermarket would put up with that kind of restrictions like living in horses. :D

rmurphy195
Posts: 1389
Joined: 20 May 2011, 11:23am
Location: South Birmingham

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby rmurphy195 » 19 Jul 2019, 12:06pm

poetd wrote::(

I commute 5 days a week. On bike. Some pretty major roads through Leeds too.
(do the odd bit of weekend leisure riding too on and off).

I know there's a lot of anti-cyclist feelings out there so I go out of my way to try and be the most polite and decent road user I can be:
Full High viz everything - I look like a canary on my bike, but I know motorists appreciate being able to see me and plan their movements around me, so that's cool.
Stop at every traffic light. Stop at junctions and let people pull out or pull in if they're waiting.
Any choke points I check to see if anyone's coming and let them through first.
Anyone stuck behind me too long on narrow roads I pull over as soon as I can and give them a wave of thanks for their patience.

I have to share the same roads with these people every day. I want them to see me and remember me as the good guy that causes them no problems.

Yet EVERY SINGLE DAY - I see other idiots on bikes blasting through traffic lights and pedestrian crossings at Red lights.
I see MORE running red lights than I see stopping at them. It's not a minority IT IS THE MAJORITY!

When I speak to car drivers, the number 1 cause of their irritation with cyclists is running red lights. Understandably really.

I hate these people.
Every time they run a red, they are angering other motorists and putting my life at risk!

Today a guy in his 60s just blasted through some lights ahead of me. Took all my self-restraint not to kick him off his bike as I passed him....

No matter how much I try, I'll never win because of these clowns.
So down about it right now. :(


I know how you feel! One RLJ nearly rammed me from behind when I stopped at a red light, and over she went. Couldn't see what was coming from her right, 'cos of the truck waiting at the lights.

I stopped to "chat" further up the road, and her view was that she could hear that there was nothing coming! As I was telling her that my friends Prius was silent, off she went against the lights and nearly got sideswiped by - a silent Prius! Stupid woman.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

landsurfer
Posts: 4856
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby landsurfer » 19 Jul 2019, 1:53pm

The words "Hate" and "Hero" have become overused and out of context to the point where they mean little any more ..... :(
It's not about the bike .. It's about the journey .....
The Road Goes On Forever ........................

poetd
Posts: 89
Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 19 Jul 2019, 3:07pm

Apologies to all for the use of a word that summed up my hot-headed feelings at the time.

I'm not a fan of revisionism though, so stand by it.

brynpoeth
Posts: 10756
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Jul 2019, 8:45am

mattheus wrote:
kwackers wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:I hate PoBs who go too fast

Let me guess. Anyone going faster than you is too fast, and slower than you is holding you up?


The late American comic George Carlin first commented on this with respect to drivers:

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

He said some other wise stuff, like this:
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Average: mean, median, mode? :wink:
..
Hate: there are plenty of alternatives
Despise, dislike, disapprove, any suggestions? +1 for revisionism!
Hoping to learn, and upgrade my vocab
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

basingstoke123
Posts: 140
Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 10:05pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby basingstoke123 » 20 Jul 2019, 3:37pm

mjr wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:A red light with a sensor to change it that does not detect a cyclist is not defective it's just been designed without taking into account all potential road users. It's a failure of planning, design or installation. If it's working as designed can you still go through on red or is it better to walk with your bike round the corner as outlined above?

It is defective, in that it does not comply with the regulations. No light is designed to ignore cycles completely. It's an installation failure. If they are reported, they are fixed, eventually. Sometimes traffic lights are designed so the timings are unhelpful for cycling (a "red wave" for example) but never to totally ignore.

Agree with MJR.

When you are stopped at a red light, and it's gradually dawning on you that it's not going to change, at that point, the cause of the failure is not of interest. The lights have failed. You are not breaking the law (my non-expert view) by going through on red, provided you do so carefully and safely.

How do you to know if the lights failed to detect you due to a component failure (e.g. a part has degraded causing a reduction in detector loop sensitivity), or this is how they were designed? You don't. And most of the time it is impossible for road users to know the cause of the failure. To expect different responses depending on the cause of the failure is nonsense.

The Highway Code, rule 176: "If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care."

Also, when I have reported faulty lights to the police, it's never been suggested that I should not have gone through on red, nor not to do so again.

How do you respond? Wait indefinitely (in freezing rain)? Cycle through on red? Get off and walk around the lights? I cycle through, when safe. If someone sees me, doubtless they will think, "Typical cyclist ignoring red lights, thinking they are above the law'. Tangled Metal will get off and walk. If someone sees him, doubtless they will think, "Typical cyclist! They expect drivers to wait at red lights. But oh no, they don't have to wait - they just get off and walk. That's cheating. If they want to cycle on the road, they should follow the rules of the road, which includes waiting at red lights."

One of the main objections I have with faulty lights is that it causes you to go through a red light, which doesn't help with the image that all cyclists ignore red lights.

At some junctions, walking is not a practical or safe option. For example, a dual carriageway with slightly staggered side roads, and right hand turning lanes from the dual carriageway. You are in the right turn lane, but the lights have not detected you to give you a green phase to turn right. It will be quicker (and thus safer) to cycle across the opposing two lanes and opposing side road than to walk across. The pedestrian crossing is 50m or more behind you, so would mean walking back up the right turn lane. Across the the right turn crossings. But then the central pedestrian has railings blocking your access.

I have reported faulty lights, and have eventually seen successful changes made. In two cases, above ground sensors were eventually installed. And more recently, the final loop had to be re-cut (it was too large). There are 3 main causes resulting in unreliable cyclist detection:

1) poor design
2) poor installation and set-up
3) equipment failure

Detectors can detect cyclists.
Detectors can detect cyclists reliably.
If you experience a problem, whether occasionally or frequently, then those lights are faulty.

If you don't report the problem, it will not be fixed! If you do report it, be prepared to repeatedly follow up, repeatedly complain, until it is fixed. You might be fortunate, and the instant default response to blindly adjust the loop sensitivity might be all that is needed. Instant means within a month or so. I also wonder if the first report is just noted, and nothing will be done unless further reports are received.

From my experience, reported faults have rarely been as simple as a wrong detector sensitivity, and have usually ended up with parts having to be replaced or new above ground detectors added - which adds more time waiting for parts, then waiting for installation.

But it takes perseverance, and time, and more perseverance. 6 months would be extremely fast. Be warned.

Confession - I am no longer willing to do this in Hampshire, unless it's for a junction that I use very frequently.

Jurassic2
Posts: 16
Joined: 26 Sep 2017, 10:19am

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Jurassic2 » 22 Jul 2019, 9:52pm

An interesting Cycling Myth https://youtu.be/swLeHK6MrHs

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5571
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Tangled Metal » 22 Jul 2019, 10:08pm

Actually the demand lights started working fit bikes about a year ago. Although I cheat by getting off and walking round to the pedestrian lights. If there's traffic I find that stops them but I've passed them so can start off again with the traffic held up behind lights.

If the lights hadn't changed I can press the pedestrian lights button too make sure. I'm sure Bryn will approve of that.

Either way, walking around the demand lights is faster than waiting for them to run. So why wait for the lights to change now they're working for bikes too?

brynpoeth
Posts: 10756
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Red means STOP! Use the pelican to fight terror!

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jul 2019, 4:58am

Right again TM
I have refined my method a bit
On the way to work I cycle past a soup factory where I used to press the button while riding by
The lights change for PoFs immediately

Now I pause there, press the button, wait until the lights change back, press again, ride off. A couple of minutes later I reach a nasty narrow bit where there is less or no traffic overtaking me because vehicles are waiting at the lights. I have to cross the road there (I hop off of course), that is easier too
Remaining problem is cyclards overtaking where there is really no room

Might seem a bit perverse mind, my journey takes a bit longer but feels safer, plusminus?

Used to drive the road too, I was quite happy if I had to wait at the lights
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life