Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

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mjr
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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 10:51am

poetd wrote:
Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Cyclists aren't idiots, motorists aren't idiots, people are idiots. We've had decades of spending on car-specific infrastructure - from traffic lights to roundabouts to multi-million pound bypasses - to ameliorate the side-effects of people in cars. If you want to make a difference, don't worry about the Mail, but rather spend your time campaigning for spending on bike-specific infrastructure so that people can cycle safely.


Totally agree more could be done to make things better for us.
But it's not all up to someone else to solve our problems for us. Some personal responsibility goes a long way - stay safe, don't break the law, don't annoy others on the road - all those things are in our own hands.

Please explain how what young Freddie the RLJing wheelieing MTB rider does in town is in my hands or my responsibility?
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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby tatanab » 17 Jul 2019, 11:06am

mattheus wrote:Hmmm, interesting point. What is your view on horse-boxes? They can get in the way and slow me down when I'm driving.
And traction engines, which I've been delayed by in the past.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 17 Jul 2019, 11:07am

mattheus wrote:
Hmmm, interesting point. What is your view on horse-boxes? They can get in the way and slow me down when I'm driving.


False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Jul 2019, 11:09am

In Tingewick I am often held up by an itinerant flock of ducks. Whoever armed them needs a good talking to.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby kwackers » 17 Jul 2019, 11:10am

poetd wrote:False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.

Most roads favoured by cyclists are narrow. Singling out means you end up overtaking closer and increases the chances of an oncoming vehicle since you're in the overtake zone for longer.
What then? Cuddle up to the cyclists for warmth?

If it's a wide road singling out might help, narrow then probably best not to.

I don't ride with other people so I can't say other than to say nothing annoys me more than someone making a half baked overtake they can't complete and then driving alongside me because as sure as eggs are eggs at some point they'll decide they've been there long enough and move towards the kerb.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mattheus » 17 Jul 2019, 11:15am

poetd wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Hmmm, interesting point. What is your view on horse-boxes? They can get in the way and slow me down when I'm driving.


False comparison, horse-boxes, tractors, caravans (to give more examples) don't have the option to make room for other users, cyclists do have that option, but some choose not to take it.

But they could pull over from time-to-time.

Especially if something like a Porsche is stuck behind.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Spinners » 17 Jul 2019, 11:23am

Perhaps we're talking about two different things here.

I regularly see POB's go up to a steady red light and either ride straight on or turn left. I never see motorists do this.

However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?
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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Jul 2019, 11:24am

poetd wrote:
Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Cyclists aren't idiots, motorists aren't idiots, people are idiots. We've had decades of spending on car-specific infrastructure - from traffic lights to roundabouts to multi-million pound bypasses - to ameliorate the side-effects of people in cars. If you want to make a difference, don't worry about the Mail, but rather spend your time campaigning for spending on bike-specific infrastructure so that people can cycle safely.


Totally agree more could be done to make things better for us.
But it's not all up to someone else to solve our problems for us. Some personal responsibility goes a long way - stay safe, don't break the law, don't annoy others on the road - all those things are in our own hands.


Agree. I've observed before: most of us are both pedestrians, cyclists and motorists to varying degrees. Courtesy, respect, being non-confrontational will help everyone.
John

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby poetd » 17 Jul 2019, 11:36am

Spinners wrote:Perhaps we're talking about two different things here.

I regularly see POB's go up to a steady red light and either ride straight on or turn left. I never see motorists do this.

However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


I've seen a couple chasing amber lights, which meh... on your own head be it.

But no, these were pedestrian crossings, clearly on red with stopped cars and cyclists going straight through (2 last night at 1 light, 3 at 2 different sets the day before).
This is always on a long quite challenging hill, and BELIEVE ME I totally fully understand the desire to not lose momentum going up it, as it is a killer hill and having to stop and start again when your legs are already starting to burn is horrible, but a small price to pay for not peeing off everyone else on the road imo.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mattheus » 17 Jul 2019, 11:48am

Spinners wrote:However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


Just so we're clear; is the above acceptable (and safe) behaviour in your eyes?

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby Spinners » 17 Jul 2019, 11:49am

mattheus wrote:
Spinners wrote:However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


Just so we're clear; is the above acceptable (and safe) behaviour in your eyes?


Both mean stop so absolutely not.

What is your view?
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kwackers
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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby kwackers » 17 Jul 2019, 11:52am

As a test I just stuck my head out of my office window and watched the junction on the corner.

In two cycles of the lights I saw 4 vehicles run a red light (red, not amber). One was late by around 3 seconds.
The ASL was infringed on all sides most of the time too.

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 12:00pm

Spinners wrote:Perhaps we're talking about two different things here.

I regularly see POB's go up to a steady red light and either ride straight on or turn left. I never see motorists do this.

However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?

No, it's generally more like up to 5 seconds of red, plus I often see motorists driving through long-shown reds, both the pedestrian-harassing "I deserve to be closer to the lights than the line is" type and the downright hazardous "that red light is only advisory for me" sort. If you're not seeing these, either you're driving/riding in very well-behaved areas or, like I think kwackers suggested, it's become so widespread that it's unremarkable now.
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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby mattheus » 17 Jul 2019, 12:11pm

Spinners wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Spinners wrote:However, I do see motorists 'go through late' (amber or about 1-2 seconds worth of red).

Is this what you see?


Just so we're clear; is the above acceptable (and safe) behaviour in your eyes?


Both mean stop so absolutely not.

What is your view?


I think they're usually a bad thing. What confused me was this:

Spinners wrote:
mjr wrote:while cyclists jumping obligatory reds may be annoying and I don't defend it, it pales into insignificance compared to the numbers and consequences of motorists doing it



Consequences? I totally agree.

Numbers? I really must be living in a different country because I never see motorists going through on red and I speak as someone who drove as part of their job for about 35 years.


So you ARE seeing plenty of drivers go through red 1-2 seconds late. Correct?

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Re: Red means STOP! or How I began to hate cyclists.

Postby PH » 17 Jul 2019, 12:13pm

Spinners wrote:
mjr wrote:while cyclists jumping obligatory reds may be annoying and I don't defend it, it pales into insignificance compared to the numbers and consequences of motorists doing it



Consequences? I totally agree.

Numbers? I really must be living in a different country because I never see motorists going through on red and I speak as someone who drove as part of their job for about 35 years.

Spinners must be living in a different country/world to me, I stop at at least fifty sets of lights a day, half of them have a cycle box at the front for my safety, nearly every single one has a car in it that's crossed the red light and stop line to be there. I use a cycle path to cross a major roundabout several times a day, vehicles regularly accelerate through the lights and cross on red, sometimes well after the pedestrian crossing is green.
I do a lot of urban riding (Deliveroo) I regularly go through red lights, most often when turning left when I can see no one else is doing so, or on otherwise empty roads, or on some junctions I'll bypass them by hopping onto the pavement. The op can hate all they want, but they'd be better off directing that anger at the planners who've not considered anyone other than the motorist. Or at the very least doing as all serious commentators have and putting it in proportion to the risk involved, then save the hate for those doing the killing and maiming every day.

EDIT - This from the West Midlands Police blog sums it up for me
Cyclists don’t cause us, as an organisation, problems, that’s because they aren’t causing our communities problems, they aren’t killing nearly 100 people on our regions roads as mechanically propelled vehicles currently do. Yes we do get complaints of the “nuisance” variety, pavement cycling, some anti-social behaviour (usually yobs on bikes rather than “cyclists”), red light running etc. but you get the idea, most peoples interpretation of “1st world problems” or the “modern day blues”, nothing that’s a priority for a force like our own in a modern day society. Bad cycling is an “irritant” to the wider community rather than a danger, and maybe an improvement in infrastructure and policing may alieve many of the reasons that cause a very small minority of cyclists to be an “irritant”
Last edited by PH on 17 Jul 2019, 12:23pm, edited 1 time in total.