Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

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Cugel
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby Cugel » 19 Aug 2019, 9:57am

reohn2 wrote:I think it's important to understand just how man people in NL cycle well into their 80's and even 90's,which in turn a fall for such elderly people more often may lead death or serious injury,that a young person may just shrug off.


Indeed! Once I bounced but now I'd crack - perhaps even shatter.

Two lads in the club I used to ride with in Lancashire have artificial hips. They're now 73 and 80 years aged. Both got them following a low-speed sideways fall off a bike. One was knocked off by another cyclist in Spain whilst the other fell on an icy metal strip on a bridge. I rode with both for many decades and have seen them, in the their younger days, fall in a far worse fashion with nothing but gravel rash.

I read an article (can't now find it) somewhere that examined oldphart hip breaking events and concluded that a good recovery can be made if the battered hip is replaced within 3 weeks of the fall & break. Any longer and the eventual replacement is far more likely to be problematic, with the worst cases resulting in a decline unto death, often via pneumonia or similar!

So best not fall off, really - especially after Brexit has torpedoed the NHS and erected a Trump facility in its place, in which they pretend to make you better but make you worse so they can charge more. :-)

It comes to us all. Where are the entrepreneurs with their hip protectors? These are what we olepharts need, not the plastic hats.

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PH
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby PH » 19 Aug 2019, 10:53am

The utility cyclist wrote:
What will e-bikes increase cycling to as a % of transportation, say in the next 5 years, 10 years or 20? I'll make a charitable wager that e-cycling will not increase cycling as a whole in any significant way over the next 10 years at least, just as it hasn't in Netherlands. We've not seen any journey increase since the mid 00s in the UK so it's still about the same number of journeys/modal share, just like the Dutch haven't seen any increase in modal share despite some of the older groups buying e-bikes in excess of 45% of all bikes sold (and that was 2016 figures so expect some of the groups to be higher still).
What makes you think e-bikes will increase the modal share in any meaningful way?

I'm tempted to take you up on that wager. Of course we'd have to agree what constituted a significant increase, though that wouldn't be as hard as agreeing on who would do the counting. I distrust those who say there's been none for a decade, I don't know who they're counting but my eyes tell me they've simply got it wrong. I'm overlooking NCN 6, just beyond a section that had to be widened due to volumes, the council did a bike count before commencing the work, have they been accounted for in the zero increase? What about the millions of food deliveries by bike a year, has anyone counted them? The didn't exist a decade ago. Or is anyone counting the bikes parked in town? Derby has increased it's stands by 30% over the last few years, yet it's still sometimes difficult to find a place, unlike a few years ago. Or the works bike shed. they've built another to cater for demand, ebikes accounting for a fair proportion of the new riders - nearly half of the companies C2W scheme gets spent on electric bikes. Or what about the three local cycling clubs that have started in the last decade, do anyone think none of that is new mileage? My local CTC group has gone from two rides a week to five in the time I've been riding with them.
It's all anecdote, localised with no research other than my own observation, but it still adds to my disbelief every time I hear that there's been no increase. I don't think we know the true figures.

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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby mjr » 19 Aug 2019, 12:50pm

reohn2 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:which of these journeys would you rather take, the blue route or the yellow route?

The blue route is a motorway :?

And that A2 motorway has cycleways, cycle lanes or cycleable roads alongside it all through the section on that map. I rode across the bottom edge of that map a few years ago. At worst, the cycle route parallel to the motorway looks like this: https://showmystreet.com/#v4715_2yb0v_94.8_-3g43 but this is more typical: https://showmystreet.com/#v44tx_2ye7v_4s.7_-4g43 (from left: motorway, service road, parallel cycleway, cycleway from motorway underpass)

OK, you do end up deviating slightly to avoid the big motorway-motorway junctions with the A9, but there are other motorway junctions where you don't.

Using the node numbers would take you along the railway line for several reasons (including less motor noise, more facilities, better connections to towns and potential to transfer to train if you break down), but you can ride the straighter route if you wish - and as you'll notice in the above "worst" link, that is actually signposted as a direct cycle route between Amsterdam and Utrecht. It's just not a node-numbered route or LF route.

I did actually ride one of the wiggliest bits on that map, from 28 to 29, 39, 1, 2 then 48, 44, 38, 17 and off the map. The wiggly bit is along the banks of the Oude Waver and an absolute delight, part of the LF2 "cities" tourist route (dark red on the map, it seems). Not a transport route, but it doesn't purport to be, being very definitely one of the LF holiday routes: https://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/lo ... cle-routes

All in all, a rather better situation than the UK where we have many incomplete cycle route networks with some of them being horribly schizophrenic about whether they are tourist or transport routes, all-weather or deep mud in autumn.
Last edited by mjr on 19 Aug 2019, 1:09pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby mjr » 19 Aug 2019, 12:54pm

Cugel wrote:It comes to us all. Where are the entrepreneurs with their hip protectors? These are what we olepharts need, not the plastic hats.

Wouldn't sturdier bikes, more upright position, fatter tyres and wider handlebars help protect the rider more? Or recumbent tricycles? Or velomobiles? All usually pooh-poohed by CTC traditionalists clinging to their lightweight narrow-tyred drop-handlebar steeds... although maybe wide long-flap saddlebags might also protect the hips... ;)

Anyway, all those are much easier to use where you've got cycleways that are fit for purpose, without stupid narrow barriers, tight slaloms or crazy zero-radius corners - where you've got Dutch or Danish build quality, in short.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby mjr » 19 Aug 2019, 12:58pm

reohn2 wrote:I think it's important to understand just how man people in NL cycle well into their 80's and even 90's,which in turn a fall for such elderly people more often may lead death or serious injury,that a young person may just shrug off.

Also that certain types of crash are considered road casualties in NL but not commonly in UK stats, including crashing/falling while mounting or dismounting an e-bike.
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reohn2
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby reohn2 » 19 Aug 2019, 1:12pm

MJR
Thanks for that.
I've ridden a couple of sections of motorway with cycle roads alongside up near Lelystad A6(?) But wasn't sure about the the 'blue' route in TUC's example.

I would ask anyone who hasn't cycled in NL to go there and see how a civilised country approaches cycling and provides their cycling infrastructure.
The most pleasant of sights is seeing 20 or more teenagers cycling to school or college,all in normal everyday clothes riding safely two abreast on roadsters chatting away to each other,or half a dozen middle aged ladies doing the same thing.
It really is a sight to behold for a poorly provided for English wo/man, which begs the question why can't we have some of the same? :?
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby Audax67 » 19 Aug 2019, 2:07pm

Mind you, there are eBikes and eBikes.

Wouldn't mind a shottie on that one. ;)
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby kwackers » 19 Aug 2019, 2:16pm

Audax67 wrote:Mind you, there are eBikes and eBikes.

Wouldn't mind a shottie on that one. ;)

An electric Harley...

I'm struggling to think who their target market is.
I can't imagine its your typical Harley owner because I'm sure they buy them because they're the nearest thing you can get to a 70's 'jack-hammer' with a saddle.

For the rest of us, whilst I'd love an electric motorcycle I wouldn't love the sort of money Harley thinks they can charge.

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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby Audax67 » 19 Aug 2019, 2:45pm

In any case, I always thought that the main point of a Harley was the noise - in comparison with the other motorbikes in the neighbourhood a bit like Concorde among the 727s. Less objectionable, too.
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby kwackers » 19 Aug 2019, 3:14pm

Audax67 wrote:In any case, I always thought that the main point of a Harley was the noise

Exactly - hence the 70's jackhammer comment.

I miss the jackhammers, they looked like fun. Always wondered if you could use them like a powered space hopper (although space hoppers weren't a thing when the jackhammers ruled).

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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby The utility cyclist » 19 Aug 2019, 3:36pm

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:which of these journeys would you rather take, the blue route or the yellow route?

The blue route is a motorway :?

And that A2 motorway has cycleways, cycle lanes or cycleable roads alongside it all through the section on that map. I rode across the bottom edge of that map a few years ago. At worst, the cycle route parallel to the motorway looks like this: https://showmystreet.com/#v4715_2yb0v_94.8_-3g43 but this is more typical: https://showmystreet.com/#v44tx_2ye7v_4s.7_-4g43 (from left: motorway, service road, parallel cycleway, cycleway from motorway underpass)

OK, you do end up deviating slightly to avoid the big motorway-motorway junctions with the A9, but there are other motorway junctions where you don't.

Using the node numbers would take you along the railway line for several reasons (including less motor noise, more facilities, better connections to towns and potential to transfer to train if you break down), but you can ride the straighter route if you wish - and as you'll notice in the above "worst" link, that is actually signposted as a direct cycle route between Amsterdam and Utrecht. It's just not a node-numbered route or LF route.

I did actually ride one of the wiggliest bits on that map, from 28 to 29, 39, 1, 2 then 48, 44, 38, 17 and off the map. The wiggly bit is along the banks of the Oude Waver and an absolute delight, part of the LF2 "cities" tourist route (dark red on the map, it seems). Not a transport route, but it doesn't purport to be, being very definitely one of the LF holiday routes: https://www.hollandcyclingroutes.com/lo ... cle-routes

All in all, a rather better situation than the UK where we have many incomplete cycle route networks with some of them being horribly schizophrenic about whether they are tourist or transport routes, all-weather or deep mud in autumn.

The route in yellow was the approved cycle lane option given by a cycle specic website and recognised dutch cycle specific route finder.
I simply picked a point at random outside the city and the yellow route was the only suggestion. I highlighted it in yellow, and blue for the most direct route which did not indicate it had cycle provision I'd only done it out of curiosity after reading an article re journeys into town on bike.

Are the cycle lanes better in themselves than here, obviously, but the cycling deaths in NL tell a tale that most don't want to or simply won't acknowledge. ATEOTD zero increase in cycling despite all the supposed benefits of infra for years and despite huge uptakebin e-bikes, the facts don't lie.

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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby mjr » 19 Aug 2019, 5:21pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
mjr wrote:[...] Using the node numbers would take you along the railway line for several reasons (including less motor noise, more facilities, better connections to towns and potential to transfer to train if you break down), but you can ride the straighter route if you wish - and as you'll notice in the above "worst" link, that is actually signposted as a direct cycle route between Amsterdam and Utrecht. It's just not a node-numbered route or LF route.[...]
All in all, a rather better situation than the UK where we have many incomplete cycle route networks with some of them being horribly schizophrenic about whether they are tourist or transport routes, all-weather or deep mud in autumn.

The route in yellow was the approved cycle lane option given by a cycle specic website and recognised dutch cycle specific route finder.
I simply picked a point at random outside the city and the yellow route was the only suggestion. I highlighted it in yellow, and blue for the most direct route which did not indicate it had cycle provision I'd only done it out of curiosity after reading an article re journeys into town on bike.

I outlined why a rider may like to take the yellow route but that doesn't mean it's the only option - and anyway, do you think imperfect advice from that unnamed "cycle specic website and recognised dutch cycle specific route finder" is evidence that Dutch cycle provision is defective? So the Dutch haven't got only perfect bike route planners - has anyone?

Are the cycle lanes better in themselves than here, obviously, but the cycling deaths in NL tell a tale that most don't want to or simply won't acknowledge. ATEOTD zero increase in cycling despite all the supposed benefits of infra for years and despite huge uptakebin e-bikes, the facts don't lie.

And the facts are things like "virtually no increase in the number of cycling casualties among the elderly (over-60s)" (says the Netherlands Central Bureau of Statistics) despite those being the biggest adopters of e-bikes. So the tale isn't the one you want to dictate, either, which is why people won't accept your version. NL cycling statistics are even more complicated a story than the UK ones - https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2018 ... g-figures/ summarises the complexities of the cycling levels and I've not yet found a good English-language summary of the complications in the casualty data.
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby reohn2 » 19 Aug 2019, 5:37pm

TUC
Go to the Netherlands and ride there,come back when you've experienced it!
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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby amaferanga » 19 Aug 2019, 9:45pm

I cycled in Copenhagen and the Netherlands (mostly Utrecht, day trip to Houten) this year. Experiencing it is everything.

What I loved most - my partner (who rarely cycles in the UK due to fear of traffic) cycling everywhere. We used bikes to get everywhere - shops, sight seeing, out for dinner or the pub. There's just no reason not to cycle and no pre-planning is needed. Google map cycle directions gets you around on protected cycleways or quiet streets.

Houten is a whole different level of cycling provision and prioritising walking and cycling. It was bliss.

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Re: Is electric the end of the bike as we know it

Postby brynpoeth » 20 Aug 2019, 5:48am

Are there too many cyclists over there, or is there enough space?
..
The biggest cycle parking place in the world is opening in Utrecht NL
13 500 places :?
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