the right road at the right time

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby roubaixtuesday » 21 Aug 2019, 4:00pm

mig wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
mig wrote:do you avoid using certain roads at certain times under certain weather conditions?

i was driving over the A628 west-east the woodhead pass late on friday night. many users here would know the route - a busy link between manchester and the M1 sheffield area which is a popular route for HGVs. conditions were awful - a strong crosswind from the south-west and lashing rain. up ahead on the main climb i saw two riders together inching up. they had lights but they weren't great ones. ahead of them another lady rider on her own with better lights but clearly struggling in the conditions. no rider was easy to see. traffic on the climb does maybe an average of 50mph give or take.

now i realise that they may have had no alternative to use that route at that time but am left wondering how many here would choose to do the same?


I once did precisely the ride you've just described - had arranged to stay with friends in West Yorks and was caught in terrible weather over the woodhead. One of the very wettest rides I can ever recall.

So I guess I'm an example of someone who would choose to do the same. But I would have jumped at an alternative less unpleasant road had there been one.


i understand that. i saw these riders as i'm (i suppose) more vigilant than many in looking for cyclists on that road. too many twists and dips for me to ride that in those conditions. it really was foul/dangerous.

i guess that you also had to put up with rather dour faces on arrival that night. they're all like that in west yorkshire :wink: #runsforcover


My friends were actually Scottish immigrants to God's own county. They asked if I'd enjoyed the balmy conditions.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby reohn2 » 21 Aug 2019, 4:17pm

Two points:-
There are no 'bad' roads,only bad drivers(which are IME on the increase).
Everything(legally)is possible,but not everything is wise.

The whole problem stems from a belief by bad/entitled/idiot drivers that cyclists shouldn't be on the roads,and they,motorists,are more important than cyclists.
By the actions and indignation of some of them shown toward cyclists,you'd think it were they that are pedalling their vehicles not us! :twisted:
Last edited by reohn2 on 22 Aug 2019, 7:48am, edited 1 time in total.
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I cycle therefore I am.

Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby Pete Owens » 21 Aug 2019, 6:16pm

mig wrote:i understand that. i saw these riders as i'm (i suppose) more vigilant than many in looking for cyclists on that road. too many twists and dips for me to ride that in those conditions. it really was foul/dangerous.

So here we have a motorist telling cyclists that they shouldn't be in a particular place because of the danger posed by motorists.
This sounds rather like a threat to me.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby pwa » 21 Aug 2019, 8:16pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mig wrote:i understand that. i saw these riders as i'm (i suppose) more vigilant than many in looking for cyclists on that road. too many twists and dips for me to ride that in those conditions. it really was foul/dangerous.

So here we have a motorist telling cyclists that they shouldn't be in a particular place because of the danger posed by motorists.
This sounds rather like a threat to me.

With a few exceptions we on this forum are mostly motorists, and cyclists, and lots of other things as well, so the OP is simply one of US. One of us who observed something while driving a car. And thought what it would be like to cycle in those conditions. That is something most of us here will do while driving, thinking about cycling related matters, empathising with cyclists we see while we ourselves are driving. Your reaction, frankly, is paranoia.

Can't we discuss things like this, even disagreeing, without making rash accusations about another person's motivation?

mig
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby mig » 21 Aug 2019, 10:54pm

yes i'm both a cyclist and a motorist. i ride 7 days out of 7. i drive one day in 42. been that way for over 25 years.

my overriding feeling was of concern for the three riders. i slowed to be able to pass them on the other side of the road and that allowed a following HGV to see me do so (as it came around a sweeping bend) and follow suit. seemed like the right thing to do.

Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby Pete Owens » 22 Aug 2019, 12:00am

mig wrote:... i saw two riders together inching up. they had lights but they weren't great ones. ahead of them another lady rider on her own with better lights but clearly struggling in the conditions. no rider was easy to see....


So lets get this straight. You claim to have had difficulty seeing them at all, blaming their supposedly poor lights rather than your own observation. Yet you can see the one furthest away in sufficient detail not only to see them, but to distinguish her gender and the nature of her riding.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby pwa » 22 Aug 2019, 7:42am

Pete Owens wrote:
mig wrote:... i saw two riders together inching up. they had lights but they weren't great ones. ahead of them another lady rider on her own with better lights but clearly struggling in the conditions. no rider was easy to see....


So lets get this straight. You claim to have had difficulty seeing them at all, blaming their supposedly poor lights rather than your own observation. Yet you can see the one furthest away in sufficient detail not only to see them, but to distinguish her gender and the nature of her riding.

You are like a lawyer cross-examining a witness to find a weak point in their statement. I know what mig means even if you don't. In fact I class the conversation as a classic one that has been had by very experienced road cyclists in cafes for as long as I have been cycling. "Do you cycle on the A40 these days? I bend over backwards to find alternatives...." And yes, remarks about rear lights do come into those conversations sometimes. Nobody starts banging on about "victim blaming" because everybody knows they are talking to hardened cyclists who make no excuses for bad driving, so they feel safe in assuming that is understood. You seem to need it spelling out.

Avoiding bad roads is something I have been doing when practical since the 1970s. "Bad roads" in this context means roads on which I feel oppressed by traffic, as I rarely feel myself to be at very much risk. If a road seems to have a higher than normal proportion of bad driving, that contributes to it being a "bad road" for me. I'm not really blaming the road itself, I'm just commenting on the conditions I find on that road. On such roads, in the rain or poor light, I feel better if I have an effective rear light. Does that excuse any bad driver who isn't paying attention and takes out a cyclist in the rain who has no light? No. But I still think the light is a good idea.

poetd
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Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby poetd » 22 Aug 2019, 8:47am

LOL @ some people.

So riding in all black, middle of the night in a fierce storm with no lights at all riding down the middle lane of a motorway is a cyclists right! And any criticism is "victim blaming".

At least I get a laugh here. :mrgreen:

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Mick F
Spambuster
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Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby Mick F » 22 Aug 2019, 9:00am

mig wrote:do you avoid using certain roads at certain times under certain weather conditions?
Most definitely.

I have the luxury of being a leisure cyclist and not a commuter any more. I can pick and choose where/when I ride and keep an eye on the weather forecasts.
Mick F. Cornwall

pwa
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Re: the right road at the right time

Postby pwa » 22 Aug 2019, 9:09am

Mick F wrote:
mig wrote:do you avoid using certain roads at certain times under certain weather conditions?
Most definitely.

I have the luxury of being a leisure cyclist and not a commuter any more. I can pick and choose where/when I ride and keep an eye on the weather forecasts.

That's exactly it. The roads I would commute on are dictated by A to B considerations, and only marginal lengthening of the route to get a better road or track is practical. But for leisure riding I minimise grotty roads.

mig
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011, 9:39pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby mig » 22 Aug 2019, 9:52am

Pete Owens wrote:
mig wrote:... i saw two riders together inching up. they had lights but they weren't great ones. ahead of them another lady rider on her own with better lights but clearly struggling in the conditions. no rider was easy to see....


So lets get this straight. You claim to have had difficulty seeing them at all, blaming their supposedly poor lights rather than your own observation. Yet you can see the one furthest away in sufficient detail not only to see them, but to distinguish her gender and the nature of her riding.


no m'lud

everyone would have difficulty. it was the conditions of extreme rain/spray and crosswind.

the small lights didn't help. i didn't 'blame' them.

i slowed down significantly to overtake allowing plenty of space and alerting any following drivers to their presence. at this point i could ascertain that the front cyclist was female, she was on a white, specialized bike. (approx 39 x 25 ratio but low cadence.) no mudguards fgs! :lol:

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The utility cyclist
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Location: The first garden city

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby The utility cyclist » 22 Aug 2019, 10:42pm

poetd wrote:LOL @ some people.

So riding in all black, middle of the night in a fierce storm with no lights at all riding down the middle lane of a motorway is a cyclists right! And any criticism is "victim blaming".

At least I get a laugh here. :mrgreen:

Well as a motorist I have no problems whatsoever avoiding and not harming anyone be they on foot, cycle or equine wherever the go even if under current acts of parliament they are not allowed to be there, it's the very minimum that is required of me by law to not harm another especially when I'm operating a killing machine.
Your words basically highlight everything that is wrong and has been wrong since the motor car was invented, push pretty much all the responsibility on to the vulnerable parties and tell them to get out the effing way as well as legalese banning of people from parts of the highway through threat of penalty and/or death due to the legal system basically allowing those presenting the harm to continue to do so with pretty much no comebacks. In fact governments have told the vulnerable parties they are at fault if they get killed/hurt through victim blaming programmes they roll out in schools, national television broadcasts and in the modern era through social media on top of the printed document that the Highway code.

If the motor vehicle and their operators were not around then wearing black, no lights, 'middle of the highway' that presents no harm to others, is perfectly safe for everyone. Pushing the vulnerable out the way and blaming them for getting killed is why we have the current poop-show and hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and millions of serious injuries on the highway! :twisted:

But laugh away at the fact that people are being killed/maimed!

basingstoke123
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Joined: 13 Feb 2008, 10:05pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby basingstoke123 » 23 Aug 2019, 12:56am

mig wrote:do you avoid using certain roads at certain times under certain weather conditions?

.. '.- a busy link between manchester and the M1 sheffield area which is a popular route for HGVs. conditions were awful - a strong crosswind from the south-west and lashing rain. up ahead on the main climb i saw two riders together inching up. ... ahead of them another lady rider on her own with better lights but clearly struggling in the conditions. no rider was easy to see. traffic on the climb does maybe an average of 50mph give or take.

now i realise that they may have had no alternative to use that route at that time but am left wondering how many here would choose to do the same?


The thread on electric bikes (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=132071&start=60) diverted onto discussing cycle routes in the Netherlands. If the above had been observed in the Netherlands, the discussion would have been purely about cycling in bad weather. And in the Netherlands, probably about how depressing it is to cycle into a head wind mile after mile (sorry, km after km) on a straight flat road.

With the exception of motorways, all road routes can be cycled, and there are also cycle only routes. Some quieter roads will have marked cycle lanes, others don't. I personally didn't see the point of these cycle lanes, but unlike the UK, they do not feel too narrow, and so encouraging drivers to pass closer than they would if there were no marked cycle lanes. Main roads have physically separate cycle lanes. It means that you choose your route based on where you want to go, and not because you want to avoid busy main roads. You just do not have to even think about traffic.

poetd
Posts: 89
Joined: 16 Jul 2019, 6:12pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby poetd » 23 Aug 2019, 6:30am

The utility cyclist wrote:Well as a motorist I have no problems whatsoever avoiding and not harming anyone be they on foot, cycle or equine wherever the go even if under current acts of parliament they are not allowed to be there, it's the very minimum that is required of me by law to not harm another especially when I'm operating a killing machine.
Your words basically highlight everything that is wrong and has been wrong since the motor car was invented, push pretty much all the responsibility on to the vulnerable parties and tell them to get out the effing way as well as legalese banning of people from parts of the highway through threat of penalty and/or death due to the legal system basically allowing those presenting the harm to continue to do so with pretty much no comebacks. In fact governments have told the vulnerable parties they are at fault if they get killed/hurt through victim blaming programmes they roll out in schools, national television broadcasts and in the modern era through social media on top of the printed document that the Highway code.

If the motor vehicle and their operators were not around then wearing black, no lights, 'middle of the highway' that presents no harm to others, is perfectly safe for everyone. Pushing the vulnerable out the way and blaming them for getting killed is why we have the current poop-show and hundreds of thousands of needless deaths and millions of serious injuries on the highway! :twisted:

But laugh away at the fact that people are being killed/maimed!


I'm sorry you feel so victimised by the presence of others on the road, it must be very uncomfortable for you and I can understand and empathise with your feelings.

pwa
Posts: 10070
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: the right road at the right time

Postby pwa » 23 Aug 2019, 7:43am

The utility cyclist wrote:
poetd wrote:LOL @ some people.

So riding in all black, middle of the night in a fierce storm with no lights at all riding down the middle lane of a motorway is a cyclists right! And any criticism is "victim blaming".

At least I get a laugh here. :mrgreen:


But laugh away at the fact that people are being killed/maimed!


Let's not look for a divide in our understanding where none exists. What we are amused by is not the danger on the roads resulting from careless drivers, or the deaths that occasionally result from that. We are amused by the ridiculous idea that we, as individual vulnerable cyclists, should not take what minimal precautions we can to preserve our lives on roads where particularly hostile conditions prevail. You can argue that we shouldn't have to take those precautions, but even if that is true it doesn't help with the real life cycling we have to do. Drivers should be doing X,Y and Z, and if they did we wouldn't have to worry. But as long as a significant number are not doing X,Y and Z we cannot rely on them. We have to do what is within our immediate power to improve our own chances.

In poor light and / or rain a good rear light seems to me to be essential. A front light is a very good idea too, but the rear is most important. Very few other vehicles on the road in those conditions will have no lights. Anyone imagining that we can return to times when vehicles did not have lights on in these conditions is like Canute, engaged in the totally futile act of trying to turn back the tide. And that is so daft it is indeed funny.