Bells on bikes

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Bonefishblues
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Aug 2019, 12:17pm

Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The AirZound.....

RIng bell

Ring bell again

"Excuse me"

"EXCUSE ME"

EXCUSE ME!

Air Zound, and let them dance the funky pedestrian!

Nothing funny about that, could cause an innocent PoF to have a heart attack


It could also cause the Plague, however neither claim is borne out by reality


Leaving aside the clinical outcomes, your scenario above has you sounding a 120db horn in close proximity to a pedestrian (significantly louder than the average car horn, which is c110db, dbs being a logarithmic measure).

Oldjohnw
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Oldjohnw » 26 Aug 2019, 12:24pm

I believe bells are legally required on a bike when sold. How long before they are compulsory?

I use a bell which works pretty well. Occasionally falls on deaf ears, either the elderly deaf or young with music in their ears. A polite call usually works. I have been complimented more than once on my cheery old fashioned bell.

I used to think that helmets caused the great divide. Seems like bells can be divisive too. Can we not merely tell folk what we do, make suggestions, present facts then live and let live?

Fancy a little bike bell get people so wound up!
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mjr
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby mjr » 26 Aug 2019, 12:49pm

drossall wrote:I have bells on one or two bikes, but never use them. To be honest, I think the periodic posts here telling others what to do get a bit repetitive. There are various ways of being polite and considerate. A bell is just one, and is not required by any rule of the Highway Code etc.

Not required, but advised, and it has a lot more basis than some of the advice in there IMO.

My personal preference, for pedestrians and horse-riders, is to whistle a happy tune (preferably one that is itself as inoffensive as possible!) while still 100m or so away. The sound carries well, and people seem to get the idea that there's someone around and they need to check behind them, without getting at all offended. Usually gets a smile in fact.

That is better than suddenly speaking to someone or shouting from afar, but I've never had it happen that I remember and I would still prefer a bell.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Aug 2019, 12:51pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Nothing funny about that, could cause an innocent PoF to have a heart attack


It could also cause the Plague, however neither claim is borne out by reality


Leaving aside the clinical outcomes, your scenario above has you sounding a 120db horn in close proximity to a pedestrian (significantly louder than the average car horn, which is c110db, dbs being a logarithmic measure).


Maximum from an Air Zound is 115 db, and even if 120 db was correctyou are assuming that the volume :
a. It is at full blast setting, (not as is common practice) turned down to preserve the air reservoir
b. Not controlled by button pressure

Of course, it does also question the use of the human voice. A lady called Jill Drake holds the record at 129 db, and most people can shout at 110 db

That makes the human voice as dangerous.... Leaving aside the clinical outcomes, your scenario above has you shouting at 110db in close proximity to a pedestrian (at least as as loud as the average car horn, which is c110db)

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Cunobelin
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Aug 2019, 12:55pm

mjr wrote:
drossall wrote:I have bells on one or two bikes, but never use them. To be honest, I think the periodic posts here telling others what to do get a bit repetitive. There are various ways of being polite and considerate. A bell is just one, and is not required by any rule of the Highway Code etc.

Not required, but advised, and it has a lot more basis than some of the advice in there IMO.

My personal preference, for pedestrians and horse-riders, is to whistle a happy tune (preferably one that is itself as inoffensive as possible!) while still 100m or so away. The sound carries well, and people seem to get the idea that there's someone around and they need to check behind them, without getting at all offended. Usually gets a smile in fact.

That is better than suddenly speaking to someone or shouting from afar, but I've never had it happen that I remember and I would still prefer a bell.



IIRC. wasn't the bell required to be fitted at point of sale?

Nothing to stop you removing it as soon as you leave the shop, except the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland

Bonefishblues
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Bonefishblues » 26 Aug 2019, 12:57pm

To paraphrase. You are sounding something very loud close to someone unaware of your presence (to avoid nickel and diming).

That was the point I was making.

It's an *rse, but it's better to suck it up and stop/slow right down than cause alarm (make them 'dance' I think you termed it). If you saw a car driver behaving similarly, might you be critical of them, I wonder?

Mike Sales
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Aug 2019, 12:59pm

Cunobelin wrote:

IIRC. wasn't the bell required to be fitted at point of sale?

Nothing to stop you removing it as soon as you leave the shop, except the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland


I wonder if it would have been be legal to ask the dealer to remove the bell after handing over the money?
It would be a separate transaction, and one she might be happy to do free of charge.

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mjr
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby mjr » 26 Aug 2019, 1:01pm

Mike Sales wrote:
mjr wrote:It's not a word. Another typo?

If you whisper, you're not going to be heard over other traffic and people's conversations. If you merely speak, you'll need to be scarily close - someone thinks they're walking alone and suddenly a voice says "excuse me" - of course they jump.


I know its not a word, and that is why you guessed what I meant to write. You make a lot of fuss over a slip.

Strange - I only kept answering the questions and comments you keep making about that. I do not usually highlight typos, but that one made it genuinely unclear whether you meant peremptory or preemptory, or whether it was some word I did not know.

Here is a tip: if you don't want a fuss made about something, stop making a fuss about it!

You really want to prove that a bell is the only way. Why, I wonder.
A voice, as I said, can encompass all that a bell can, and a good deal more.

Bells aren't the only way but they are by far the best and while a voice can carry as far as a bell over other traffic and conversations, you have to shout hard (or scream, I guess, to be at a higher pitch, but I have not heard cyclists doing that!). So the alternative if you are not shouting is to get uncomfortably close to people before speaking.

I don't so much want to prove that as a bell is best (I quite like the fun balloon horns too and whistling seems OK - waiting far behind for the road to widen so much as to allow passage is also possible but often walkers react to a wider road by spreading out even more) as to disprove that speaking to people from close up or shouting from afar is anything like as polite. The idea that bells have no purpose seems very common on here and some other CTC social networks and it really should be debunked whenever it is posted IMO.

Cunobelin wrote:IIRC. wasn't the bell required to be fitted at point of sale?

Yes but I do not know the current state of those regulations (I do not sell bikes), they seem widely ignored (reflectors, anyone?) and it is not in the highway code, which was the claim.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mike Sales
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Aug 2019, 1:02pm

Bonefishblues wrote:To paraphrase. You are sounding something very loud close to someone unaware of your presence (to avoid nickel and diming).

That was the point I was making.

It's an *rse, but it's better to suck it up and stop/slow right down than cause alarm (make them 'dance' I think you termed it). If you saw a car driver behaving similarly, might you be critical of them, I wonder?


Quite agree. I prefer to behave unlike a driver.
In the hierarchy of road (and path) users pedestrians should be above cyclists.

Mike Sales
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Aug 2019, 1:08pm

mjr wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
mjr wrote:It's not a word. Another typo?

If you whisper, you're not going to be heard over other traffic and people's conversations. If you merely speak, you'll need to be scarily close - someone thinks they're walking alone and suddenly a voice says "excuse me" - of course they jump.


I know its not a word, and that is why you guessed what I meant to write. You make a lot of fuss over a slip.

Strange - I only kept answering the questions and comments you keep making about that. I do not usually highlight typos, but that one made it genuinely unclear whether you meant peremptory or preemptory, or whether it was some word I did not know.

Here is a tip: if you don't want a fuss made about something, stop making a fuss about it!

You really want to prove that a bell is the only way. Why, I wonder.
A voice, as I said, can encompass all that a bell can, and a good deal more.




I think we have both spent enough effort on making clear our views on bells, and I am content to let others judge who made more sense. I would not want to be prescriptive about bells, I have merely been defending my practice, which I have never found to give offence or cause difficulties.
I was glad to find that others agree with my approach.

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mjr
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby mjr » 26 Aug 2019, 2:17pm

Of course others support you. You are supporting the club orthodoxy of not having a bell and scaring walkers. It may be interesting to consider where bells are common and where bikes are accepted readily.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mike Sales
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Mike Sales » 26 Aug 2019, 2:22pm

mjr wrote:Of course others support you. You are supporting the club orthodoxy of not having a bell and scaring walkers. It may be interesting to consider where bells are common and where bikes are accepted readily.


How often need I repeat that I have never scared a pedestrian on a shared use path.
I find that the posters to this forum are quite a heterogenous lot.

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mjr
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby mjr » 26 Aug 2019, 3:28pm

Mike Sales wrote:
mjr wrote:Of course others support you. You are supporting the club orthodoxy of not having a bell and scaring walkers. It may be interesting to consider where bells are common and where bikes are accepted readily.


How often need I repeat that I have never scared a pedestrian on a shared use path.

...as far as you know. How often need I repeat that I would take exception to people sneaking up close to me and starting talking in the manner described?

I find that the posters to this forum are quite a heterogenous lot.

Indeed, but you can count on there being at least some opposing bells just like those supporting mudguards, drop handlebars, lycra, bike-bondage and helmet use!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Carlton green
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby Carlton green » 26 Aug 2019, 8:04pm

I’m quite surprised at how this thread has turned out, rather contentious in parts.

Use of a Bell or not, and other interaction(s) too, is(are) surely simple if the Golden Rule is followed: ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule).
Of course there are exceptions to every rule but attempting to follow the ‘golden’ one is surely a good start point.

For safe passage how would you, both as a pedestrian and as an another rider, like cyclists to make their presence known or sufficiently recognised? I don’t think that one answer covers all situations so some context with your comments would be helpful.

drossall
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Re: Bells on bikes

Postby drossall » 26 Aug 2019, 11:16pm

The issue is that it's not apparent that everyone will give the same answer. That's borne out both by the views expressed here on contributors' own behalves, and by the experiences that they report. So, some people (when they are walking) welcome bells, and some see them as an offensive "Get out of my way!" Equally, as cyclists, folk here have encountered both reactions. And, of course, come across riders who used bells in both manners.

So, it's the insistence of some on a "one size fits all solution", and the inability to accept that different people might react to a bell in different ways, that is the problem, at least in part.