Parking on the pavement to be banned!

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Vorpal
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Sep 2019, 9:54am

In some cities in the Netherlands, they have installed new, underground parking under older residential areas to get the cars off the streets.
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Mike Sales
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Sep 2019, 10:06am

Vorpal wrote:In some cities in the Netherlands, they have installed new, underground parking under older residential areas to get the cars off the streets.


That sounds expensive. Who pays?

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Sep 2019, 10:40am

Mike Sales wrote:
Vorpal wrote:In some cities in the Netherlands, they have installed new, underground parking under older residential areas to get the cars off the streets.


That sounds expensive. Who pays?


I don't know how such things are funded. Presumably, they are funded by tax payers, possibly with occasional input from EU grants.

But honestly, I think it is a better use of highways funds than a new road. Or a new high speed junction on an existing road.

I see articles published in various engineering / professional magazines like https://www.worldhighways.com/sections/ ... ng-garage/ was estimated at €29m, which is worth about one mile of British motorway :( I don't know how the final cost compared. But maybe that's a better investment than a £200 million road widening scheme? And the rate of return on investment is good because they charge for parking.
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Sep 2019, 10:51am

Vorpal wrote:I don't know how such things are funded. Presumably, they are funded by tax payers, possibly with occasional input from EU grants.

But honestly, I think it is a better use of highways funds than a new road. Or a new high speed junction on an existing road.

I see articles published in various engineering / professional magazines like https://www.worldhighways.com/sections/ ... ng-garage/ was estimated at €29m, which is worth about one mile of British motorway :( I don't know how the final cost compared. But maybe that's a better investment than a £200 million road widening scheme? And the rate of return on investment is good because they charge for parking.


I think that vehicle users are already subsidised, in that they do not pay the externals.
Like a new road, free parking, or parking provided under cost, encourages excess driving, at a time when it is clear we should be making car use less convenient.

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby eileithyia » 11 Sep 2019, 12:37pm

Vorpal wrote:In some cities in the Netherlands, they have installed new, underground parking under older residential areas to get the cars off the streets.


Certainly would be one answer.
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Sep 2019, 1:03pm

Mike Sales wrote:
I think that vehicle users are already subsidised, in that they do not pay the externals.
Like a new road, free parking, or parking provided under cost, encourages excess driving, at a time when it is clear we should be making car use less convenient.

I do agree. And if it was my choice, I'd spend more on infrastructure for walking and cycling, pedestrianising town centres, public transport, etc. and much less on motorways and parking.

That said, if you eliminate on-street parking across a wide area (thousands of spaces), replacing them with more limited (20% as many spaces?) underground parking, this may do several things:
-provide access for those with business vehicles that are needed fro service, carrying heavy tools, etc.
-remove the cars from the streets, allowing more people-friendly spaces
-provide access for visiting service & tradespeople
-provide access to vehicles for disabled and infirm users

I don't know all of the details, or how Dutch planners weigh such things. I Oslo, they have simply banned parking on very many streets without providing alternatives. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/05/os ... -that-way/

However, there was already a good park and ride system, and excellent public transport links. So, most folks just switched to alternatives. That would be much harder to do in a larger city, especially without the supporting transport & infrastructure.
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Mike Sales » 11 Sep 2019, 1:17pm

When more space is provided for cars, then more cars fill it. The Oslo policy seems better. Making more space for cars to park centrally would surely undermine park and ride, which fits better with parking bans.
There is nothing quite so convenient as being able to drive to your own door and park there, but without rebuilding our urban areas this is not available. Attempting it is failing, which is why cars are allowed to block the pavement and narrow the road.
A rebuilt, car-friendly residential area becomes more unfriendly for walking and cycling, not least because it increases journey length.

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Sep 2019, 2:16pm

Mike Sales wrote:When more space is provided for cars, then more cars fill it. The Oslo policy seems better. Making more space for cars to park centrally would surely undermine park and ride, which fits better with parking bans.
There is nothing quite so convenient as being able to drive to your own door and park there, but without rebuilding our urban areas this is not available. Attempting it is failing, which is why cars are allowed to block the pavement and narrow the road.
A rebuilt, car-friendly residential area becomes more unfriendly for walking and cycling, not least because it increases journey length.

The point of replacing street parking with smaller numbers of underground spaces though, is that it reduces the availability of parking, requires parking farther away, costs more, and leaves the streets for people, instead of cars.

As I said, I don't know how Dutch planners weigh these things. I know that they have a policy of making driving inconvenient in cities, but that doesn't seem to extent to longer trips. I think the approach in Oslo is better, but also recognise that it may not be suitable everywhere. Most British cities would require considerable improvement in public transport & cycling infrastructure to introduce significant limits on parking.
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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Sep 2019, 8:06pm

mattheus wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I wondered if anyone ever just walked over the top of a pavement parked car if it blocks the way? Would that count add criminal damage?

IANAL but I'd say it would. You would need some pretty serious justification to get away with it e.g. building on fire, could not escape due to blocked car.

Not just; "had to step out into road". Or "driver had parked like a drongo"* Sorry )-:

* https://images.app.goo.gl/SXncRYZs1Tc1UYn9A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carwalking

https://youtu.be/lbuxuXwhJqM

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Sep 2019, 8:09pm

kwackers wrote:
mjr wrote:This does not seem to be the sunrise we are looking for.

I thought that but then the article says:

"The Scottish government has already banned pavement parking in its Transport (Scotland) Bill, and the Welsh government has set up a task force to look at the issue."

Which makes me feel a lot more confident that it'll happen.

The Scottish and Welsh governments both have a lot more power (including a degree of financial autonomy) than local authorities. In addition, because they are elected as a sort of national government, people probably tend to vote on party lines rather than on the more local issues which elect local councillors; thus giving them more freedom to implement potentially unpopular or controversial but beneficial measures.

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Sep 2019, 8:25pm

eileithyia wrote:I guess for most people actually being able to afford a property either rented or purchased is their over-riding priority before considering car parking, the properties around my area are hardly fancy quarter million properties, we are talking 2-3 bedroom industrial revolution terraces where people are getting by on shift work, builders, shop workers, groundsmen,nursery workers, young families and those that are clearly still living in the same property they came to as young marrieds.

OT but... a quarter of a million doesn't get you anything fancy nowadays. In fact the properties you describe will cost at least that in many towns and cities.

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Sep 2019, 8:33pm

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby rbrian » 11 Sep 2019, 9:41pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:I wondered if anyone ever just walked over the top of a pavement parked car if it blocks the way? Would that count add criminal damage?

IANAL but I'd say it would. You would need some pretty serious justification to get away with it e.g. building on fire, could not escape due to blocked car.

Not just; "had to step out into road". Or "driver had parked like a drongo"* Sorry )-:

* https://images.app.goo.gl/SXncRYZs1Tc1UYn9A

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carwalking

https://youtu.be/lbuxuXwhJqM


I thought it was bad where I live, but Munich in the 1980s is unbelievable! I've often thought of car walking many times, but I usually content myself with walking in a straight line, not avoiding the car, but scraping the side of it and folding back the mirrors.

My favourite was when I was 17, with all the righteous cockyness you'd expect. I had 4 friends in my Mum's car, and the cinema car park was full. There was a brand new BMW taking up two spaces, presumably to avoid getting damaged by carelessly opened doors. I let all my friends out, then squeezed the little pug 205 into half a space. I had to slam the door hard into that BMW to get out, and then I inadvertently scraped my key all the way along the side. I never heard anything about it, but I hope they got the message.
Cynic? No, an optimist tempered by experience.

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Re: Parking on the pavement to be banned!

Postby LollyKat » 12 Sep 2019, 9:48pm

I have an 80-year-old disabled friend who gets about with an electric wheelchair. Recently she set off to her local social club but had to turn back because of a police van parked half on the pavement. A lack of dropped kerbs and a blind corner meant that she couldn't find an alternative route. She sent a strong complaint in to the police and received an abject apology - I hope they take it on board but I'm not holding my breath.