School Run

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
pwa
Posts: 10427
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: School Run

Postby pwa » 16 Sep 2019, 9:24pm

A school is a part of its community. Teachers are employed by the school, but they are not responsible for it being there. It is ridiculous to suggest that the teachers make the problem by having a school there. Whatever problems exist because of the beginning and end of the school day are the problems of the community whose school it is, not the employed professional teachers.

I am aware of no particular problems around our local primary and secondary schools, so I suggest this is not a universal issue. There is a bit of temporary congestion on a main road near one primary school but all it does is cause a bit of delay, which just requires people to either show some patience or learn to time their journeys to be either side of this short period.

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 9:58pm

pwa wrote:A school is a part of its community. Teachers are employed by the school, but they are not responsible for it being there. It is ridiculous to suggest that the teachers make the problem by having a school there. Whatever problems exist because of the beginning and end of the school day are the problems of the community whose school it is, not the employed professional teachers.
.....

I have plenty of problems of my own to sort out and don't really have time to start sorting problems caused by others outside my own "community". I expect those who are the cause of the problems to sort them out rather than expecting others who have no involvement to sort them out. In the case of the local problem school there are loads of free easy things they could try with trivial effort.

(Did I suggest "the teachers make the problem by having a school there"? I don't remember saying that). The school certainly creates the problem because if there were no school there nobody would be parking dangerously obstructing a sharp bend.

Ian

pwa
Posts: 10427
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: School Run

Postby pwa » 16 Sep 2019, 10:11pm

Psamathe wrote:
pwa wrote:A school is a part of its community. Teachers are employed by the school, but they are not responsible for it being there. It is ridiculous to suggest that the teachers make the problem by having a school there. Whatever problems exist because of the beginning and end of the school day are the problems of the community whose school it is, not the employed professional teachers.
.....

I have plenty of problems of my own to sort out and don't really have time to start sorting problems caused by others outside my own "community". I expect those who are the cause of the problems to sort them out rather than expecting others who have no involvement to sort them out. In the case of the local problem school there are loads of free easy things they could try with trivial effort.

(Did I suggest "the teachers make the problem by having a school there"? I don't remember saying that). The school certainly creates the problem because if there were no school there nobody would be parking dangerously obstructing a sharp bend.

Ian

The school is there because the community is there. It is a community facility made by your local authority to meet your community's needs. The teachers employed by your local schools are just employees of your local authority. They did not put the school there. Your elected local authority did. They are very unlikely to have had much say in street layout. The problem is made by your community. The drivers are members of your community, a community that some of the teachers will not live in. Your community. Why pass the buck to people your local authority employs to teach?

Your local authority is responsible for anything that needs doing with regard to traffic management, unless it is a police matter. And the drivers themselves of course.

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:21pm

pwa wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
pwa wrote:A school is a part of its community. Teachers are employed by the school, but they are not responsible for it being there. It is ridiculous to suggest that the teachers make the problem by having a school there. Whatever problems exist because of the beginning and end of the school day are the problems of the community whose school it is, not the employed professional teachers.
.....

I have plenty of problems of my own to sort out and don't really have time to start sorting problems caused by others outside my own "community". I expect those who are the cause of the problems to sort them out rather than expecting others who have no involvement to sort them out. In the case of the local problem school there are loads of free easy things they could try with trivial effort.

(Did I suggest "the teachers make the problem by having a school there"? I don't remember saying that). The school certainly creates the problem because if there were no school there nobody would be parking dangerously obstructing a sharp bend.

Ian

The school is there because the community is there. It is a community facility made by your local authority to meet your community's needs. The teachers employed by your local schools are just employees of your local authority. They did not put the school there. Your elected local authority did. They are very unlikely to have had much say in street layout. The problem is made by your community. The drivers are members of your community, a community that some of the teachers will not live in. Your community. Why pass the buck to people your local authority employs to teach?

Your local authority is responsible for anything that needs doing with regard to traffic management, unless it is a police matter. And the drivers themselves of course.

You keep saying "your community" except it isn't; it's somebody else's community (I don't live there).

I see the operation of the school in part being the responsibility of the school staff. They are aware of the issues and danger so they should either do the trivial things needed to sort it out or they should refer the issues to those who can (local authorities, Police).

Ian

jgurney
Posts: 527
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: School Run

Postby jgurney » 16 Sep 2019, 10:26pm

Psamathe wrote: do the trivial things needed to sort it out


What are these trivial things?

Mike Sales
Posts: 3405
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: School Run

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Sep 2019, 10:27pm

Psamathe wrote: They are aware of the issues and danger so they should either do the trivial things needed to sort it out or they should refer the issues to those who can (local authorities, Police).

Ian


You overstate just a little when you say the remedies are trivial. This is a widespread and persistent problem. The root lies, as in so many other of society's problems, in the encouragement of private motor transport.

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:35pm

jgurney wrote:
Psamathe wrote: do the trivial things needed to sort it out


What are these trivial things?

Some if the things I suggested included getting Police to attend on a couple of occasions, including warnings about dangerous/illegal parking with any existing communications to parents, send a teacher out briefly just before kids to take pics of dangerously parked cars, pin up a few A4 signs along that section, put an article in the local parish magazine (if they have one, we do every month).

Ian

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:46pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Psamathe wrote: They are aware of the issues and danger so they should either do the trivial things needed to sort it out or they should refer the issues to those who can (local authorities, Police).

Ian


You overstate just a little when you say the remedies are trivial. This is a widespread and persistent problem. The root lies, as in so many other of society's problems, in the encouragement of private motor transport.

I agree about your point on "encouraging private motor transport" but in this particular case the danger is just beside the school on the shard bend with diabolical visibility. There is plenty of roadside parking, there is maybe 100 yards problem but it's close the school so is the place chosen 1st. Park 50 yards away and it's not dangerous (I'm guessing the distances). Unfortunately the road in one direction is not good for youngsters to cycle in on and it has no pavements and in the other direction it's only 2 miles to another similar school (that does not cause the same issues).

I'd love to have suggested the encourage more kids to cycle in but even I don't like cycling on that road (1 mile beyond the school it is pretty nasty on a bike, in used to be derestricted but they reduced it to 40 but even at 40 pretty horrible).

Ian

jgurney
Posts: 527
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: School Run

Postby jgurney » 16 Sep 2019, 10:50pm

Psamathe wrote:Some if the things I suggested included getting Police to attend on a couple of occasions, including warnings about dangerous/illegal parking


Probably effective, but requires the cooperation of the Police.

with any existing communications to parents,


Which problem parents do not read or heed.

send a teacher out briefly just before kids to take pics of dangerously parked cars,


Most teachers can't go out just before the kids as they are in class with those kids, plus risk of confrontations, plus the images are useless unless the Police accept them as evidence and take action (see other threads from cyclists who have had problems over the Police not acting on photos provided).

pin up a few A4 signs along that section,


Schools have no powers to put up road signs, and in any case problem parents would generally ignore them.

put an article in the local parish magazine (if they have one..)


How many of the parents involved read the parish magazine? How many of the schools with serious problems are in areas with one? In the case of secondary schools, how many of the parents live in the parish the school is in?

Mike Sales
Posts: 3405
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: School Run

Postby Mike Sales » 16 Sep 2019, 10:55pm

Psamathe wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Psamathe wrote: They are aware of the issues and danger so they should either do the trivial things needed to sort it out or they should refer the issues to those who can (local authorities, Police).

Ian


You overstate just a little when you say the remedies are trivial. This is a widespread and persistent problem. The root lies, as in so many other of society's problems, in the encouragement of private motor transport.

I agree about your point on "encouraging private motor transport" but in this particular case the danger is just beside the school on the shard bend with diabolical visibility. There is plenty of roadside parking, there is maybe 100 yards problem but it's close the school so is the place chosen 1st. Park 50 yards away and it's not dangerous (I'm guessing the distances). Unfortunately the road in one direction is not good for youngsters to cycle in on and it has no pavements and in the other direction it's only 2 miles to another similar school (that does not cause the same issues).

I'd love to have suggested the encourage more kids to cycle in but even I don't like cycling on that road (1 mile beyond the school it is pretty nasty on a bike, in used to be derestricted but they reduced it to 40 but even at 40 pretty horrible).

Ian


The danger by your account is still, not sharp bends but the behaviour of an excess of drivers, as is the danger of cycling. This is not solvable by teachers, and is common to all schools.

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 10:57pm

jgurney wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Some if the things I suggested included getting Police to attend on a couple of occasions, including warnings about dangerous/illegal parking


Probably effective, but requires the cooperation of the Police.
.....

I would certainly expect the Police to be cooperative when asked to help by the school. Particularly as it's a danger and were they to be an accident at some point and the Police had refused to help the school it would be embarrassing for the Police so "buttock covering" would probably ensure their help.

Add the "Police will be patrolling" to communications and then when a few tickets get issues word will quickly get round.

But the point is there are things that they can try that don't involve spending loads of money, don't take loads of time, etc.

(The other points have positives e.g. school has already put up other signs in the past (that I would consider "pushing the law") - but it's not constructive to get into a point by point rebuttal contest which rather detracts from the general discussion).

Ian

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 11:03pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
You overstate just a little when you say the remedies are trivial. This is a widespread and persistent problem. The root lies, as in so many other of society's problems, in the encouragement of private motor transport.

I agree about your point on "encouraging private motor transport" but in this particular case the danger is just beside the school on the shard bend with diabolical visibility. There is plenty of roadside parking, there is maybe 100 yards problem but it's close the school so is the place chosen 1st. Park 50 yards away and it's not dangerous (I'm guessing the distances). Unfortunately the road in one direction is not good for youngsters to cycle in on and it has no pavements and in the other direction it's only 2 miles to another similar school (that does not cause the same issues).

I'd love to have suggested the encourage more kids to cycle in but even I don't like cycling on that road (1 mile beyond the school it is pretty nasty on a bike, in used to be derestricted but they reduced it to 40 but even at 40 pretty horrible).

Ian


The danger by your account is still, not sharp bends but the behaviour of an excess of drivers, as is the danger of cycling. This is not solvable by teachers, and is common to all schools.

Without drawing maps, explaining the geography, etc. it's hard. The nasty bit of road is hate (so don't tend to cycle on) starts a short distance away from the school so youngsters cycling to school from on direction would have to go on the nasty bit. The danger from the sharp bend is that it's a sharp right hand bend with no pavements and high thick hedges on the inside of the bend (so you can't see round it) - not a problem when you can stay on your side of the road but the dangerous parking is on the left so you have to pull out onto the right hand side of the road right of the sharp bend with no visibility. Bad in a car or a bike.

Stop cars parking on the bend and the road is ok. But the nasty bit some kids would still have to cycle on is a separate issue I regard more as the nature of the road rather than anything else - there are some roads which are not great for cycling and it's one of them.

Ian

Tangled Metal
Posts: 5835
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: School Run

Postby Tangled Metal » 16 Sep 2019, 11:06pm

Our nearest primary school has parking signs out, they mention parking issues in the school newsletter and if needed in a letter sent home with the pupils.

Our son has only gone there for two years and during that period there has really only been one incident of note. The street on one side of the school was being used for car parking (it only has two sides with roads the others are houses/ builders merchant and a canal). After a letter and newsletter people stopped doing it.

The streets on the other side has back alleys capable if taking a fair few cars. Plus the roads with houses most people are out during the school run.

However the important point is the school sees a problem, it informs the parents/ carers and the parents make the corrections. Imho that's schools and parents working together to help the school operate within the community.

It sounds like Psamathe's problem school is doing that. They sound like they're ignoring the community around them. It would be interesting to know if they communicate the parking issue to parents or not. If they did not then imho they're certainly part of the problem as well.

Psamathe
Posts: 10596
Joined: 10 Jan 2014, 8:56pm

Re: School Run

Postby Psamathe » 16 Sep 2019, 11:19pm

Tangled Metal wrote:....
It sounds like Psamathe's problem school is doing that. They sound like they're ignoring the community around them. It would be interesting to know if they communicate the parking issue to parents or not. If they did not then imho they're certainly part of the problem as well.

I have not gone into detail with them what they have or have not done. It was an e-mail exchange as it's not in my village and I regarded shorter to the point e-mails as being more effective than trying to get them to give me "war & peace" justifying themselves (and I do have a bit of a tendency to go on a bit long in written stuff). The signs they put up at one point (which I felt were "pushing it") were paper/card printed 20 mph signs, "pushing it" because it's a 30 limit so putting up fake 20 mph signs may not be legal - I don't know but it does not bother me if it makes things safer and I suspect if they bothered to contact Highways they'd get the speed limit reduced to 20 without any argument (the situation certainly justifies 20 limit).

Ian

awavey
Posts: 108
Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:04am

Re: School Run

Postby awavey » 17 Sep 2019, 12:08am

Im fortunate my job allows me to work flexibly on hours such that I can completely avoid the school run and start later, helps the school day seems to be shifting ever earlier too, as its complete lunacy on the road I live on which leads to both primary and high school, and not much better on the commute as I pass another 2 high schools and primary which are just as bad

if its not the parents driving like completely insane people, its the teachers too, the road becomes a race track, I tried cycling it a few times but it was just so dangerous, people would drive head on at you give you no space or room or anything, I had a car once drive up on the pavement to overtake me. and the bin lorries now no longer collect around that time either as they were just getting so much verbal and sometimes physical abuse from car drivers for "blocking the road"

a group of parents tried to "calm it down" become parking wardens in effect for the primary school, but ultimately the police told them to stop as they were also becoming at risk of physical attacks and the police said they just didnt have the resources to police that stuff every day so it just is what it is, the only respite is school holidays.