And another off.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
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And another off.

Postby kwackers » 19 Sep 2019, 8:28am

Opinions and suggestions welcomed.

Annoyingly this is a carbon copy (same place, same deed) of another off. In both cases whilst "I hope you're turning right" crossed my mind it turned out they weren't.
I do wonder if I should move my pannier to the other side because I'm pretty sure in both cases they push the rear of the bike around steering me into the car and giving me no chance to get away.

You'll hear me bang on the window (although by then it was too late).
What I'm trying to do there (and usually succeeding) is to take the lane coming up to the junction so I won't get left hooked.

Usual excuses, "middle of road", "should be using the cycle lane" (the one that had ended earlier?). Not helped at all by the police who very obviously thought I should be in the gutter and not in the lane and I noticed the daft bint kept repeating "I used to be in the police" so obviously after a bit leverage.

Anyway police aren't interested in the footage and as far as they're concerned that's the end of it.

One lesson I've learned - I don't bounce anything like as well as I used to. Despite no external bruising the amount of pain I was in yesterday broke all records, I think I probably bounced all my gubbins about straining ligaments and such.
Much better today but still in a lot of pain. Hospital did a CT scan but nothing untoward so hopefully I'll OK'ish tomorrow.
Bike has buckled front wheel and a damaged seat although I haven't had a good look at it yet.


reohn2
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Re: And another off.

Postby reohn2 » 19 Sep 2019, 8:57am

Sorry to read about it,the driver is a dangerous idiot,and Merseyside and Cheshire police are useless.
Get well soon.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

fastpedaller
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Re: And another off.

Postby fastpedaller » 19 Sep 2019, 9:35am

That's poor - she can hardly say 'I didn't see you' - Police should take this up as there was absolutely no need to try and squeeze past like that. I think an official complaint should be made to the Police if they won't follow this up.
Hope you get well soon. FP

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Re: And another off.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Sep 2019, 9:51am

Sorry to read this.

The driver is an idiot. I don't see much that I would do differently, though it's a little hard to tell from video. The few times I've been involved in such incidents like that, I've been able to steer to the kerb &/or brake enough to avoid being knocked off, though once it was a very near thing.

I would, however, write a letter of complaint to the IPCC requesting that the incident should be dealt with properly.
I would send another to the Police & Crime Commissioner about the poor attitude and lack of training exhibited by the police officer with regards to cyclists.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

atlas_shrugged
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Re: And another off.

Postby atlas_shrugged » 19 Sep 2019, 10:00am

* Not overtaking with a cars width
* Overtaking at a junction
* Deliberately ramming you off the road
* Victim blaming

This deserves a lifetime ban from driving. The problem is the GetOutOfMyWay brigade do not see it this way. I had the same experience from a Stagecoach driver in Cranebridge. I was in front at red traffic lights and I set off in front and 1 bus passed OK and then a 2nd one close passed me with nowhere to go in front and so elected to squeeze me off the road even though he only had 50 yards to go until the next stop. When politely suggesting he should not squeeze me off the road he got in a strop and said I should not accelerate! There are a spectrum of drivers on the roads and as the conditions get worse the bad ones need taking off the road as unfit, OR we need full segregation for vulnerable users - with drivers picking up the tab.

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mjr
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Re: And another off.

Postby mjr » 19 Sep 2019, 10:37am

kwackers wrote:Opinions and suggestions welcomed.

Why the **** didn't you drop anchor when the ****ing **** started to drift ****ing left into you? If I had history at that junction, I think I might even try to adjust my speed to avoid being exactly level with a right-turner. Don't bang on the window - she moved out so she knows you're there but just doesn't care. None of that excuses her actions, though!

The cycle lane is irrelevant because it ended before the incident. Rear view hints at what happened IMO: she was attempting to overtake without entering the central stripey area, then continued on the same unsafe inadequately-far-out line once a second lane appeared and then incompetently tried to complete the overtake before the junction in an unsafe manner.

Moving the pannier will do nothing about that. She needs refresher lessons or to get points towards losing her licence.

I'd send the video to the police as a complaint and contact your insurer to claim off her insurance for the damage and the bruising. Save the original memory card until everything is settled and don't insert it into any computer except read-only mode (little slider on the side of microSD card adapter). Document everything, including your reason for not using the substandard narrow gutter lane on the approach. The police failing doesn't mean she won't pay for the damage she's done!

hemo
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Re: And another off.

Postby hemo » 19 Sep 2019, 10:42am

Pleased to hear you are generally ok Kwackers and nothing serious bodily, I can't say I know how you are completely feeling bodily but mentally feeling you diced serious injury.
I too was knocked off during late afternoon yesterday, T boned ( traversing a T junction) by an Audi driver who apparently was in a rush according to a driver who witnessed things. Luckily for me it was a very low speed punt that had me and the bike lying in the middle of the road, apart from a very minor upper chest bruising my bikes need also need a new front wheel/rim and a complete new Hollowtech crank set as the LH crank/pedal took the brunt of the hit and is bent as far as the rear rim would allow it.

kwackers
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Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 19 Sep 2019, 11:11am

mjr wrote:Why the **** didn't you drop anchor when the ****ing **** started to drift ****ing left into you? If I had history at that junction, I think I might even try to adjust my speed to avoid being exactly level with a right-turner. Don't bang on the window - she moved out so she knows you're there but just doesn't care. None of that excuses her actions, though!

Good questions and ones I've asked myself. Always good to look back on what you could have done differently.

So couple of answers.
First is often people overtake quite close there to get into the right hand lane, I think that first 'click' you hear is her making contact with the bike at which point it's all over since I no longer have control.
With that in mind I guess 'force of habit' comes into it, whilst not reacting early enough is bad so is continually overreacting.

But I'd also suggest there's a degree of bloody mindedness on my part - it's actually quite difficult to pull out in retrospect but if there wasn't at least a bit of "pee off, this is my lane" going on in my head then knowing myself moderately well I'd be surprised.

I've never claimed to be perfect and am happy to hold my hands up and say I probably could have handled it better but time is short and conscious thought quite slow.

Darkman
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Re: And another off.

Postby Darkman » 19 Sep 2019, 11:21am

She clearly booted it and tried to pass you into a gap that wasn't there, then rammed you from the side.

Amazed that the police aren't interested in video of a driver who is clearly dangerous. What if it had been a child she knocked off? What if you'd fallen the other way and gone under her wheels, or the truck behind?

Impatient nutter wants locking up.

NetworkMan
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Re: And another off.

Postby NetworkMan » 19 Sep 2019, 12:41pm

Is it Holland where the car driver is by default assumed to be responsible for all situations like this? Fat chance here though.

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Si
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Re: And another off.

Postby Si » 19 Sep 2019, 12:52pm

But I'd also suggest there's a degree of bloody mindedness on my part


indeed, tis something i recognise well. Staying in a position of danger because you know that you are in the right and are fed up with people treating you like scum. Sometimes it works and they back off, other times they back off and then jump out and try to have a fight, and still other times it goes very wrong like on your video.

This is why i got a camera. Rather than thinking "you aint going to get away with that" and staying in the position of danger while the red mist comes down, i just back off content in the knowledge that they wont get away with it because I'll send the video to the police....so i stay safe, dont have my ride ruined, and have vengeance, erm i mean ensure that they will recieve proper education on their driving. However, after the incident, when all has calmed down, i tend to forget to send the footage to the police :oops: . None the less, it is a strategy that lessens the danger for me and my rides are spoiled less often.

In short, she was the cause of the incident but i could well understand a claim of "contributory negligence" given that they will claim you could have grabbed the brakes and moved towards the kerb rather than letting go of the bar and banging the car. It aint right but its the way it is.

Hope you feel better soon.

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Re: And another off.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Sep 2019, 1:06pm

NetworkMan wrote:Is it Holland where the car driver is by default assumed to be responsible for all situations like this? Fat chance here though.

They presume liability. That is a civil thing (has nothing to do with prosecution or points on a licence). It means that the driver's insurance will pay for damages, unless they can demonstrate that the cyclist contributed to the incident. Even so, cyclists who are under 16 can never be considered to have contributed, though if it can be shown that the damage was caused deliberately by the young person, the parents can be held partly liable. There are generally limitations on cyclist liability. IIRC, cyclists can never be held more than 50% liable.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Re: And another off.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Sep 2019, 1:24pm

Si wrote:In short, she was the cause of the incident but i could well understand a claim of "contributory negligence" given that they will claim you could have grabbed the brakes and moved towards the kerb rather than letting go of the bar and banging the car. It aint right but its the way it is.

I cannot, of course, see what kwackers did, but it happened quite quickly, and I think it would be difficult in the extreme to demonstrate contributory negligence. He has a few things in his favour....
1) she has already tried and backed off once; it is reasonable to assume that she will do the same again (especially as it is entirely obvious, even before she starts the second time that there isn't space for it)
2) she has entered a right turn lane, which she should not so unless she is turning right
3) once kwackers knocks on the window, it seems that she actually steers into him

It is not certain that steering into the kerb and braking would have prevented the crash, and indeed it may have made it worse, giving kwackers no place to go, except into the kerb, which may have resulted in a more severe injury.

Unless kwackers is willing to repeat it again as experiment :wink: we will never know.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

slowster
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Re: And another off.

Postby slowster » 19 Sep 2019, 1:51pm

Si wrote: i could well understand a claim of "contributory negligence" given that they will claim you could have grabbed the brakes and moved towards the kerb rather than letting go of the bar and banging the car. It aint right but its the way it is.

Contributory negligence is only relevant to the civil law aspect, i.e. any legal claim for compensation for the damage and injuries caused by her negligent driving. If, as the OP says, he only let go of the bar and banged the car after the car made contact with his bike/pannier and consequently he was already by that time unbalanced and unable to control the bike, then there was no contributory negligence. I think it can be almost an instinctive reaction in that type of scenario to not to lean/turn away from the car, and instead to lean against the car or reach out against it because it is the only support available once you have been knocked off balance. Banging against it similarly is not surprising - it's something I could well imagine myself doing in fear and panic in that situation where you no longer have control over the bike.

With regard to the criminal law aspect, that was awful driving and IMO should result in prosecution for driving with due care and attention, and I would have expected it to be a slam dunk case with the video evidence.

It's appalling that the police have indicated that they will not take this further. I would ask on behalf of everyone that rides a bike that you do not accept that - it just encourages a culture of complacency and indifference amongst those in the police who are the decision makers, if they can get away with fobbing people off even when there is such clear video evidence. You've already put the video on Youtube, so I would suggest tweeting a link to that video to a list of people:

- the relevant PCC
- the local press
- the police road traffic twitter account
- the chief constable

If you do not have a Twitter account and do not want to sign up for one, maybe another forum user who does have an account could tweet the link on your behalf.

For what little it's worth, my view is that drop bars are less than ideal for riding in traffic. I appreciate that a drop barred road bike or touring bike is likely to be a bit faster, and that helps to keep up with the traffic flow, but you will still not be able to match the speeds of motor vehicles. If the nature of your commute makes it viable (not too long or hilly), I would prefer a bike with an upright position, ideally even something as extreme as a Gazelle old fashioned dutch bike or the Pashley equivalent or even better a second hand bike of that type, which I think makes it easier to keep an eye on what is happening around you (especially if you fit a mirror) and I think also gives you a bit more 'road presence' as it were. The fact that such a bike means you go slower is no bad thing IMO, because I think that forces cars to slow down more if they cannot overtake, and a collision where you are travelling more slowly and on an upright bike is probably likely to have a less worse outcome.

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Re: And another off.

Postby Vorpal » 19 Sep 2019, 2:30pm

Type of bike has nothing to do with this incident, and frankly it shouldn't matter. I, for one, would not commute on something like a Gazelle or Pashley, for many reasons.

Twitter, on the other hand, is a brilliant idea :)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom