And another off.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
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Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 6:32pm

landsurfer wrote:Thats quite a good cycle lane .... not a painted line festooned with dead hedgehogs and tyre debris .... personally i'd have used it ... being squished by an HGV driven by a tired guy from Eastern Europe, while wearing my magic helmet of course ... would not be good ... moral high ground dos'nt work if your remains are only 6mm thick ....

I can tell you from experience there is a problem with that lane.

It both runs out and the road narrows, when busy cars will tailgate each other whilst passing you and suddenly you're being forced against the kerb trying to figure out how to get back into traffic flow. If there's a queue of right turning cars you can expect to have absolutely nowhere to go.
Your best bet is if you make it as far as the pub is to turn into the car park and walk/ride your bike across as a pedestrian. Drivers are a lot less tolerant of bicycles trying to get into traffic flow than they are of bicycles tailing other cars.

And so since I'm already in the traffic flow and keeping pace with the traffic it normally makes sense to stay where I am until I'm through the lights and there's space for everyone (as an aside the continuation of the bike lane is pointless, past the lights it's simply parking).

I'm not sure what your point about HGV's is, if there's an HGV at the side of you on that road then you're toast anyway.

Pete Owens
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Re: And another off.

Postby Pete Owens » 20 Sep 2019, 6:38pm

Pete Owens wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:There most certainly was a cycle lane for most of the duration the manoeuvre - even if it had just ended by the time of the collision; the car was actually slightly ahead of the cyclist at the point the lane ended.

As far as the authorities who painted it, the motorist and the police that is where the cyclist should position themselves to keep out of the way of the all important motor traffic. In their world view a cyclist riding outside the lane is obstructing the flow of traffic, deliberately putting themselves in harms way in the process. They would see the cyclist behaviour as lane hogging - in exactly the same way that they would pull over a motorist cruising at 40mph in the outside lane of a dual carriageway.

Note - I most certainly do not endorse this view - I am just explaining why the cycle lane is such bad news from the cyclists perspective.


The police might believe that but it is not the law

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/2007-01- ... s-re-trial


It may not be the law - but remember they were not prosecuting the OP just offering advice.

Also the Dan Cadden case might well have turned out differently if the "cycle lane" the police had originally requested he used actually been a cycle lane rather than an edge of carriageway marking. He was after all found guilty at the original trial.

While it unlikely that we will face prosecution for refusing to use cycle lanes -Don't expect any protection from the authorities if you disregard facilities supposedly installed for your safety.

landsurfer
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Re: And another off.

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 6:49pm

kwackers wrote:
I'm not sure what your point about HGV's is, if there's an HGV at the side of you on that road then you're toast anyway.


We have an acquaintance ..Tallin .. he was recently 600cc Motorcycle World Champion (Paraplegic), held on the bike with velcro ...really.
He came off his motorcycle after a minor collision with a car ..slid down the road in his state of the art motorcycle safety equipment ..... and was hit by an HGV coming the other way ... driven by a tired Eastern European driver ..... :(
His helmet was undamaged ! ...

The point i was trying to make was that stuff happens ... and all the planning, training and PSE in the world ... will not keep you safe..

Life intervenes .... so live every day to the full ...

Those poor cyclists at Shoreham are a case in point .... :( :( :(
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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foxyrider
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Re: And another off.

Postby foxyrider » 20 Sep 2019, 6:50pm

landsurfer wrote:
alexnharvey wrote:

The police might believe that but it is not the law

https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/2007-01- ... s-re-trial


Thats quite a good cycle lane .... not a painted line festooned with dead hedgehogs and tyre debris .... personally i'd have used it ... being squished by an HGV driven by a tired guy from Eastern Europe, while wearing my magic helmet of course ... would not be good ... moral high ground dos'nt work if your remains are only 6mm thick ....

A recent experience .. this is the txt of an e-mail i sent to Gordons Coaches of Rotherham... I didn't get a reply ....


...........................

Good afternoon,

"23rd June 2019.
Approx 0830 hrs.
A631 / Bramley Park / Cross St.

Cyclist.

As I approached the traffic lights in the area of Park Grove / A631 i was overtaken by one of your coaches.
3 axle single decker.
The driver came level with me at approx 1 meter clearance … then pulled the bus into the kerb forcing me towards the kerb and to brake heavily to avoid being hit by the rear wheels.
Without taking sudden avoiding action i believe i would have been seriously injured.
I drove round to the drivers window and was vocal in my comments.
His response was to accuse me of going through the lights at Church Lane on red. He was correct, the lights changed as i went through them.

So … because he believed i had gone through the Church Lane lights on red it was ok to try and knock me off my bike !!!

His behaviour brings Gordons Coaches driving standards into question.
It may be that your drivers need training in passing cyclists, i believe this is available from South Yorkshire Police as part of their Cycle Safety initiative.

I welcome your comments."

I braked to avoid injury, i have a duty of care to myself ... and a wife and 3 young children .... :)
"He was in the right" will not be on my headstone ... i will take every possible action to keep myself safe ... I will not pursue my rights and end up hurt ... and i do not believe the OP did either ....


You forgot the magic line - "I shall be talking to the Star*' - that seems to work wonders!

* - local newspaper.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

landsurfer
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Re: And another off.

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 6:52pm

foxyrider wrote:You forgot the magic line - "I shall be talking to the Star*' - that seems to work wonders!

* - local newspaper.


:lol: .. I forgot about that one .... I may well resurrect that complaint ... :D
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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mjr
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Re: And another off.

Postby mjr » 20 Sep 2019, 7:16pm

landsurfer wrote:
foxyrider wrote:You forgot the magic line - "I shall be talking to the Star*' - that seems to work wonders!

* - local newspaper.


:lol: .. I forgot about that one .... I may well resurrect that complaint ... :D

Send a copy of the resurrection to the local Traffic Commissioner. I'm sure they would like to hear about an operator ignoring complaints of poor driving.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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slowster
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Re: And another off.

Postby slowster » 20 Sep 2019, 8:07pm

OP, in response to your request for suggestions of what else could you have done, having looked again at the video, the only thing I can suggest is going even further out into the lane (Primary Plus?). 23 seconds in you appear to be directly behind the Audi's passenger side rear lights (which corresponds to being in the centre of the lane when the lane markings and arrow appear at 24s). I would consider going wider so that you were behind the number plate or even further, i.e. so that you were well out but there was not enough room to tempt the stupid idiot to try to undertake you on the inside.

Obviously going wider is no guarantee - the idiot could still have attempted the overtake and pulled in against you, but the further out you are, the more of an obstacle you are that she has to drive around, which might just be enough to make someone like her think twice.

As for the cycle lane, that seems to me to be a complete red herring - it had little or nothing to do with the actual incident.

You know the road and the traffic and the conditions, and I don't. Nor would I suggest or try to imply that I am a better rider than you and that it wouldn't have happened to me. I'm just looking at the video and asking myself what else could you have done, and going wider is the only thing that I can think of.

Farrina
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Re: And another off.

Postby Farrina » 20 Sep 2019, 8:50pm

reohn2 wrote:Sorry to read about it,the driver is a dangerous idiot,and Merseyside and Cheshire police are useless.
Get well soon.

I likewise send my best wishes for your swift recovery.

I wonder whether the attending Officer was in fact a “traffic” Officer or just (I use the word lightly) a response Officer ?

I suspect this may not be the appropriate route (given earlier Police involvement) but it is possible to report incidents online here https://www.merseyside.police.uk/ro/report/rti/rti-a/report-a-road-traffic-incident/

In my experience, post initial report, you are then requested to upload the video to a specific site. The team that seem to review matters are based here

MATRIX - Roads Policing Unit
Operational Command Centre
Leaward Drive
Estuary Business Park
Speke L24 8DA

SOH.roadspolicing@merseyside.police.uk

Alternatively (and very much a shot in the dark) you could try contacting this person and see if he will “play ball” and engage (possibly not the best route, but it might short circuit things if he will)

David Williams
Sgt Roads Policing Investigation
8684@merseyside.pnn.police.uk
Direct Line Tel:+441517773359

If you prefer a more hands off approach you can complain online here https://www.merseyside.police.uk/fo/feedback/tc/thanks-and-complaints/poor-service/?lid=&cid=&rid=5&stepid=1-2

Personally I prefer to start at the top and would suggest a doorstep visit to Merseyside Police HQ to express your dissatisfaction and lodge a formal complaint/requesting a review of the footage - a letter addressed to the Chief Constable Andy Cooke may be a good place to start

Headquarters is in Canning Place here
https://goo.gl/maps/qaqdZPNfv7G7BATv7

You may have to work at finding the entrance, as its a bit like Fort Knox!

Best wishes

cycle tramp
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Re: And another off.

Postby cycle tramp » 20 Sep 2019, 9:39pm

H'mmm... looking at the film image again, it looks to me as if she makes two attempts to over take you. The first one she tries and then is either forced back or perhaps understands that there is not enough room and during the second she knocks you off as she doesn't give you enough room....
...give the recent high profile police campaign of giving cyclists enough room, I would report the incident to the police using the camera footage and ask them to investigate further....
... I am surprised that the uk cycling team haven't been in touch with you.

hemo
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Re: And another off.

Postby hemo » 20 Sep 2019, 11:46pm

HC rule 212 was clearly ignored by woman driver, not matter whether a cycle lane was available or not.

rmurphy195
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Re: And another off.

Postby rmurphy195 » 22 Sep 2019, 8:12pm

hemo wrote:Pleased to hear you are generally ok Kwackers and nothing serious bodily, I can't say I know how you are completely feeling bodily but mentally feeling you diced serious injury.
I too was knocked off during late afternoon yesterday, T boned ( traversing a T junction) by an Audi driver who apparently was in a rush according to a driver who witnessed things. Luckily for me it was a very low speed punt that had me and the bike lying in the middle of the road, apart from a very minor upper chest bruising my bikes need also need a new front wheel/rim and a complete new Hollowtech crank set as the LH crank/pedal took the brunt of the hit and is bent as far as the rear rim would allow it.


I had a similar accident a while back, crank bent into the rim. Looked at from above, the frame was banana shaped as well - get it thoroughly checked. If the frame is OK all well and good, but as well as the crankset I'd replace the pedals as well in case the spindle on one of them has bent slightly, which could give you knee problems later if you use it.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

awavey
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Re: And another off.

Postby awavey » 22 Sep 2019, 11:25pm

kwackers wrote:
landsurfer wrote:It's a question, just a question.... if you hadn't had front and rear cameras to aid your campaign to gather footage of the evil motorists would you not have just braked and kept yourself safe ?
"Duty of care" .. and all that.
Banging on her car ? So time to manoeuvre or brake ?... bad decisions by both parties ?

Oh ... nearside pannier user myself ... much safer ....

I don't think so.
The cameras are fit and forget tbh I don't think about them - I've been carrying them around now for 8-9 years? Perhaps at first...
There's little point in camera footage for private motorists at any rate although I have in the past used it for some of the more serious transgressions against liveried drivers.
Handy for educating the petrol head at work who has the view that cyclists are all criminals and he never sees car drivers doing anything wrong.

The banging on the window - I did mention earlier that when I did that it was already too late. At that point the bike was actually leaning against her car, perhaps a good man could have rescued it, but the wheels where both to the left, the only safe way to bring it to a stop would have been if I could have continued leaning against the car and we both roll to a safe stop. As soon as she moved away the front wheel tucked which is what threw me off.

The pannier is a weird thing, the reason I've always favoured it on the right is because it gives width to the bike on that side - a bit like one of those sticks with a reflector on it.
Does it work? I don't know, but in this case you can actually see the car make contact with the pannier, push the rear of the bike out and force me to steer into the car. Without the pannier the bike wouldn't have tried to steer into the car, perhaps I'd have maintained control? Who knows.

Her initial attempts at overtaking aren't unusual at that junction although people usually are in a rush to get into the right hand filter lane and often take liberties with overtaking space - they panic in case the car behind them makes that move first so consequently you'll sometimes see folk barrel right up in the opposite lane particularly if there's a queue much to the consternation of oncoming traffic.

Putting video up always opens one up to criticism, I know that and invite it.
As I said I don't claim I'm perfect and one of the main uses of the cameras is to play back incidents and ask myself what I could have done differently.


I dont see you did anything wrong there at all, thats how Id have ridden that piece of road in those circumstances forget the cycle lane its irrelevant at that point, you werent holding anyone up,thats the safest most visible spot for you to be in, as I suspect at the lights you run the risk of a car alongside you then left hooking, there literally was nothing to be gained by anyone trying to overtake you at that point as there was no car shaped hole in front of you, so it was a ridiculous move by the car and not one youd have anticipated till it was too late to have much chance of recovery

and remember the car only makes contact with the pannier because they drove into you, thats not on you at all or which side you run your panniers on at all, thats totally their fault. I always ride with mine on the right hand side now, never use to as I always thought I wanted to feel I was leaning kerbside (away from danger), but a friend advised me to swap it over as it gives me an extra foot of blocking space, and has massively cut down the number of close passes I was getting through pinch points.

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mjr
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Re: And another off.

Postby mjr » 23 Sep 2019, 12:05am

Changing which side your pannier is on only makes you look further out and the symmetric overtaking hypothesis says motorists give you the same distance as you give yourself from the edge, so you should be able to reduce close passes the same by riding a pannier's width further out, if the hypothesis is correct.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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kwackers
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Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 7 Oct 2019, 4:12pm

Minor update.

I'm using an "ambulance chaser" to pursue the driver - on the basis it's easier than me doing it myself.
I've made an official complaint to the police, they've contacted me requesting footage (which I've sent) and did mention over the phone that they would have expected to have requested my footage before closing the case. So we'll see.

Other than that, still have a few minor aches and pains plus some scabby bits.

Waiting to hear from the solicitors regarding my bike.
They expect you to tout it round and get repair estimates, but tbh I can't be bothered. I'd have to strip it to get it in my car and since they really need a few estimates that means dropping it of and picking it up and tbh I simply don't have that much spare time.

So since it has to be stripped I may as well swap out the bits myself. I've been round it and have a fairly comprehensive list of the damage so just need them to let me know if I can buy and fit the parts myself.

There's somewhat more damage than I thought.
New front wheel (might need a new Son hub) + tyre & inner.
Seat is bent (ISM 2.0).
Front light is scraped (Lumatech IQ).
Rear light / camera (Fly6) is cracked.
Pedal scraped.
Mudguard damaged.
Bars scraped (plus obviously covering damaged).
Right brake hood damaged.
Frame has a scrape on it - although tbh it's a well used 2010 bike so I can let that go.

Oh and somehow my phone took a hit in the pannier and put a tiny dent on the 'off' switch which means I can't turn it off anymore...

The other thing I'm unsure about is I'm not currently feeling the love of doing my commute.
I feel I'm happy to cycle (I'm using a bike to get to and from the train station at the moment) but I'm frankly fed up with having to avoid idiots like this. I reckon on average it must be something like once or twice a month.
I did enjoy my commute but sometimes if I got a few near misses in quick succession it did make me question it for a bit until I thought, nah, f'em.
But this time I'm wondering if I really want the hassle anymore. I'd feel better if the police had done something from the off, but given it seems like we can't even rely on them to even bother investigating does make me feel a bit down about the whole thing.

But, if I don't do my commute then I'm unsure where that stands me with re any claim. Again they expect some sort of concrete cost and it's unreasonable to expect them to pay my train fares forever.
So that's another question I've asked the solicitor.

Oh um.

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mjr
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Re: And another off.

Postby mjr » 7 Oct 2019, 5:27pm

kwackers wrote:Waiting to hear from the solicitors regarding my bike.
They expect you to tout it round and get repair estimates, but tbh I can't be bothered. I'd have to strip it to get it in my car and since they really need a few estimates that means dropping it of and picking it up and tbh I simply don't have that much spare time.

1. Do they? Don't they know any bike shops (maybe a chain) that they trust to be straight enough?

2. Are there any mobile mechanics in your area who could come to you to look at it to give an estimate?

3. Not claiming for the bike might reduce the payout and thereby reduce whatever costs the solicitor can recover from the other party - but it's usually the injury where the big money is so I doubt it'll deter them.

4. If you swap the bits yourself, then they'll know the exact cost, which seems better than an estimate, plus they can probably not pay for the labour of swapping... so you might still be able to claim. The suspicion would be that you do work unrelated to the crash, but maybe if you take lots of pictures of the bits before removal and keep them labelled and ready for inspection, they might not succeed in quibbling. Worth an ask, IMO.

But this time I'm wondering if I really want the hassle anymore. I'd feel better if the police had done something from the off, but given it seems like we can't even rely on them to even bother investigating does make me feel a bit down about the whole thing.

Please tell this story to your police commissioner and MP as well as us. If nothing else, it might help them understand how this failure of traffic policing affects people and undermines other attempts to tackle pollution.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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