And another off.

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kwackers
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Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 3:26am

hemo wrote:Surely it is a reportable accident not only did the driver have Kwackers off his bike but a hit and run as well.
Police should have at least cautioned the driver for driving with undue care and attention though guess it depends on the force and whether they can be bothered, they at least should be able to give insurer details to make a claim against the driver direct via her insurers.

To be fair she stopped on the other side of the junction so I had to carry my damaged bike over the road to speak to her.

The police were to be honest frankly useless.
I told them I had a camera (she claims she also had a camera as part of her insistence I was to blame), the police didn't take a witness statement from me nor ask about the camera footage and it became obvious when the policeman in question was giving me "advice" whilst I was sat in the ambulance that initially he thought I'd come through the lights from her left!

He was diplomatic but there's no doubt in my mind he thought my road positioning was at least partly to blame and he repeatedly said I should "keep left". I rather got the impression that by saying there'd be no charges he thought he was doing me a favour! I'd have been really interested to have heard the conversation between him and the driver.

It's a wide road but by the time the right hand filter lane has been added at the lights there's no way a bike and a car can fit into a single lane and that's before you take into account the possibility of a left hook.

landsurfer
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Re: And another off.

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 6:39am

It's a question, just a question.... if you hadn't had front and rear cameras to aid your campaign to gather footage of the evil motorists would you not have just braked and kept yourself safe ?
"Duty of care" .. and all that.
Banging on her car ? So time to manoeuvre or brake ?... bad decisions by both parties ?

Oh ... nearside pannier user myself ... much safer ....
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

Oldjohnw
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Location: Northumberland

Re: And another off.

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Sep 2019, 7:08am

Questiom: is carrying cameras a bit like wearing helmets or bright colours? You have a false sense of safety?

No matter how much I'm in the right is arguing with more than a ton of metal as and making a point a wise choice?

Just asking.
John

Cycling and recycling

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 8:04am

landsurfer wrote:It's a question, just a question.... if you hadn't had front and rear cameras to aid your campaign to gather footage of the evil motorists would you not have just braked and kept yourself safe ?
"Duty of care" .. and all that.
Banging on her car ? So time to manoeuvre or brake ?... bad decisions by both parties ?

Oh ... nearside pannier user myself ... much safer ....

I don't think so.
The cameras are fit and forget tbh I don't think about them - I've been carrying them around now for 8-9 years? Perhaps at first...
There's little point in camera footage for private motorists at any rate although I have in the past used it for some of the more serious transgressions against liveried drivers.
Handy for educating the petrol head at work who has the view that cyclists are all criminals and he never sees car drivers doing anything wrong.

The banging on the window - I did mention earlier that when I did that it was already too late. At that point the bike was actually leaning against her car, perhaps a good man could have rescued it, but the wheels where both to the left, the only safe way to bring it to a stop would have been if I could have continued leaning against the car and we both roll to a safe stop. As soon as she moved away the front wheel tucked which is what threw me off.

The pannier is a weird thing, the reason I've always favoured it on the right is because it gives width to the bike on that side - a bit like one of those sticks with a reflector on it.
Does it work? I don't know, but in this case you can actually see the car make contact with the pannier, push the rear of the bike out and force me to steer into the car. Without the pannier the bike wouldn't have tried to steer into the car, perhaps I'd have maintained control? Who knows.

Her initial attempts at overtaking aren't unusual at that junction although people usually are in a rush to get into the right hand filter lane and often take liberties with overtaking space - they panic in case the car behind them makes that move first so consequently you'll sometimes see folk barrel right up in the opposite lane particularly if there's a queue much to the consternation of oncoming traffic.

Putting video up always opens one up to criticism, I know that and invite it.
As I said I don't claim I'm perfect and one of the main uses of the cameras is to play back incidents and ask myself what I could have done differently.

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 8:11am

Oldjohnw wrote:Questiom: is carrying cameras a bit like wearing helmets or bright colours? You have a false sense of safety?

No matter how much I'm in the right is arguing with more than a ton of metal as and making a point a wise choice?

Just asking.

See my reply above.

Worth pointing out that in my experience when reviewing camera footage it always seems like you have a nice long time to make a decision.
That's never true when an incident is in progress.

In the above incident I felt I had ages once the bike was leaning against the car but in practise I had little over a second.
Prior to that when I could have done something I didn't feel like I had any time at all. My initial thought was more along the lines of "they're close" when I believed they were overtaking to move up into the right turn lane followed by incredulity as I felt the bike shifting under me in what seemed like no time at all.

It's a bit like the distortion of the image in the video, everything looks further away, in practice stuff isn't as it looks. You can get some ideas by counting white lines, the length of a bus stop etc. The camera is also on the bars so the viewpoint looks poor whereas I could see a line of slow moving traffic headed by a bus on a junction that I know traffic only moves through slowly due to the left turn that also has narrow lanes.

It's a true fact that if something looks bad/close on a camera it was a lot worse/closer in real life.

alexnharvey
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Re: And another off.

Postby alexnharvey » 20 Sep 2019, 8:25am

I would suggest to the PCC that the driver's ex police officer status may have led the police to fail to investigate this matter properly.

Oldjohnw
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Re: And another off.

Postby Oldjohnw » 20 Sep 2019, 8:26am

I did not mean to be critical. I was genuinely just wondering. I have never had cameras but then I don't have any need to cycle through traffic.

OTOH, I have seen film by someone on YouTube who is some sort of vigilante and appears to me to go around setting up situations. He then uses intemperate language and says "I've got you on camera'. Fat difference that makes.
John

Cycling and recycling

kwackers
Posts: 13695
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Location: Warrington

Re: And another off.

Postby kwackers » 20 Sep 2019, 8:31am

Oldjohnw wrote:I did not mean to be critical. I was genuinely just wondering. I have never had cameras but then I don't have any need to cycle through traffic.

OTOH, I have seen film by someone on YouTube who is some sort of vigilante and appears to me to go around setting up situations. He then uses intemperate language and says "I've got you on camera'. Fat difference that makes.

I'm happy with criticism, going over it and seeing others perspective is a helpful process.

My main reason for fitting cameras is that I've seen so many people walk away with no punishment from something that couldn't possibly have happened the way it was described.
If I'm going to depart this world in a cycle accident I'd like my family to know what happened and if necessary to get appropriate recompense.
When you're dead you can't give your side of the story.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: And another off.

Postby reohn2 » 20 Sep 2019, 8:31am

On who's onus is it when overtaking to do it safely and without danger to other road users?
Should you overtake at a junction?
Should you change lanes at a junction in the manner the driver did in this case?
Why was the cyclist in the wrong according to some posters on this thread?

IMO I can't see how Kwackers did anything wrong and taking the lane/ riding in primary road position is something I do all the time in situations such as this.
IMO this was clearly a case of a motorist bullying a 'lesser' being on the road and due to the lack of decent policing this driver will feel justified in their actions.
So to those people that are,
STOP VICTIM BLAIMING,
STOP BLAIMING THE CYCLIST FOR USING A CAMERA,
PUT THE BLAIM WHERE IT BELONGS.
Sheesh this place is becoming more like a petrolhead's cycle haters fest!
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I cycle therefore I am.

landsurfer
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Location: Rotherham

Re: And another off.

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 8:44am

Forgotten to take your meds this morning i see ...

By the way its BLAME ,,, ( "PUT THE BLAIM WHERE IT BELONGS." )
5/10 ...see me later ...


If your going to rant at forum members at least get the spelling right ...
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

reohn2
Posts: 36281
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: And another off.

Postby reohn2 » 20 Sep 2019, 8:52am

landsurfer wrote:Forgotten to take your meds this morning i see ...

By the way its BLAME ,,, ( "PUT THE BLAIM WHERE IT BELONGS." )
5/10 ...see me later ...


If your going to rant at forum members at least get the spelling right ...

You need to grow up a little,when you've lost the plot and the argument,blaim the spelling :roll:

PS, see,I did it again.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

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Si
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Re: And another off.

Postby Si » 20 Sep 2019, 8:57am

landsurfer wrote:Forgotten to take your meds this morning i see ...

By the way its BLAME ,,, ( "PUT THE BLAIM WHERE IT BELONGS." )
5/10 ...see me later ...


If your going to rant at forum members at least get the spelling right ...


I think you will find it's "you're" not "your".
3/10

Let us _all_ please discuss the issue in a respectful manner, rather than giving the impression that we are getting shouty, or pedantically picking holes in each others spelling as you'll always find that someone can do the same to you (you will notice the intentional mistakes in this post so that others can do it to me).

In terms of victim blaming, I can't see much of it here, everyone seems to be blaming the motorist. What people are doing is making suggestions as to how K might have got himself out of the situation, caused by the driver, with less damage.

For instance if someone was to try and hit you in the head i would advise you to duck...if you didn't then duck it does not mean I am blaming you for getting hit!

landsurfer
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Location: Rotherham

Re: And another off.

Postby landsurfer » 20 Sep 2019, 9:06am

Si wrote:
I think you will find it's "you're" not "your".
3/10



:lol: Touche' ....
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

geocycle
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: And another off.

Postby geocycle » 20 Sep 2019, 9:17am

There's also disturbing evidence in the is thread of uni-pannierism... this forum has a strict code of conduct on such matters :wink:

Hope you're ok Kwackers, looked a nasty one.

reohn2
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: And another off.

Postby reohn2 » 20 Sep 2019, 9:24am

Si wrote:In terms of victim blaming, I can't see much of it here, everyone seems to be blaming the motorist.

landsurfer wrote:It's a question, just a question.... if you hadn't had front and rear cameras to aid your campaign to gather footage of the evil motorists would you not have just braked and kept yourself safe ?

This looks like victim blaming to me,and Landsurfer has previous form where cameras on bikes is concerned

What people are doing is making suggestions as to how K might have got himself out of the situation, caused by the driver, with less damage


It's all very easy to make judgements with 20/20 vision as we sit at our computers,in the moment it's a completely different thing.

For instance if someone was to try and hit you in the head i would advise you to duck...if you didn't then duck it does not mean I am blaming you for getting hit!

If someone's not there to warn you and someone sneaks up behind you when you feel you're in a safe place,what then?

This driver overtook at a junction where she shouldn't and where K was in primary in the clearly marked straight ahead lane,the driver overtook partially in the right turn lane and with traffic up ahead so was only racing to the next TL.Idiot driver backed up by useless p*** poor police force,and victim blaimed by Landsurfer.
YVMV mine won't.

EDIT:- one more thing,leading up the incident the painted p*** poor cycle lane prior to the junction IMO gave this lunatic driver some erroneous justification for thinking that K should have been 'out of the way',irrespective of the fact that it wasn't in evidence at the junction.
She was wholly to blame(note correct spelling),for this collision and should be booked for dangerous driving,but true to form for Merseyside police nothing will be done unless K persues it all the way.
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I cycle therefore I am.