1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

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reohn2
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby reohn2 » 21 Sep 2019, 11:52pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
roubaixtuesday wrote:
Why?

Obesity and its demands on the NHS?

That's an extra reason that hadn't even occurred to me. I was thinking on a more idealistically rigorous level; it's simply replacing human-propulsion with motor-propulsion. It uses extra resources, obviously, but the main thing in my mind is that it starts the slide to abandoning pedalling completely; anyone who doubts that this will happen has only to look at the various illegal or modified e-bikes being ridden today (that complete their entire journeys on battery power alone) or look at the history of the moped.

I'd distinguish these people from those who are using electric assistance to allow them to do things the "reasonable cyclist" of jury mythology might do, such as ride at the pace of friends to the cafe, pull a heavy load, ride up a hill. That's a perfectly good use of e-bikes, and one I dare say I'll be making use of in a couple of decades. And those who are using e-bikes to replace car journeys are to be applauded.

There is no applauding or disapproving concerning e-bikes,they're here in the world and available to anyone and everyone who wishes to use them.As such those who choose to use them will,and if that means more people are turning pedals and cycling e-assisted or not,then that's got to be a good thing IMO.
Of course an explosion of e-bikes brings with it other problems which need to be overcome or accomodated for,but frankly I'd rather be harassed by too many cyclists e-assisted or otherwise than too many cars such as is the sorry state of most UK roads presently.Another plus is the more cyclists the lesser the chances poor cycling provision being ignored.
One things for sure e-bikes aren't going to go away,quite the opposite in fact so better see the positive side of them than complain that certain fit and able people shouldn't be using them,I'd have a lot more sympathy with complaints about able bodied people using a car for sub three mile journeys than with the same people using an e-bike.
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brynpoeth
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Sep 2019, 12:41am

They are not available to anyone who wants one, they cost much much more to buy and to run than bwms, bikes without motors, many people cannot afford or cannot thoyle an €bike
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kwackers
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby kwackers » 22 Sep 2019, 8:30am

brynpoeth wrote:They are not available to anyone who wants one, they cost much much more to buy and to run than bwms, bikes without motors, many people cannot afford or cannot thoyle an €bike

And yet someone is buying them...

I don't get the pricing. "Big name" ebikes are silly expensive, places like Whoosh though do their own for what I'd consider sensible money given current battery and motor prices.

You can always pay for it like I did mine, substitute riding to work for using the train. £8.60 a day saved, cost of conversion £750 (big battery) paid for in around 4 months (I even get to charge it at work saving about 5p a day too! ;)

Obviously if you're retired and can't subsidise it that way then you can still do the same if you use it instead of a car or the bus. I'm guessing you wouldn't need such a large battery as mine so consequently it could be done cheaper.

Obviously if you insist on paying £3k for the latest and greatest but can't afford it then walking in your Nike's will have to do.

Sensible priced ebikes are about £2-£3 a day spread over a year. Seems like good value to me. I think folk that can't afford that have more pressing issues than the affordability of ebikes.

Oldjohnw
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Sep 2019, 8:37am

Do people ever pay more than £1000 for a bike without a motor, I wonder?

5p per charge? Extortionate.
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kwackers
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby kwackers » 22 Sep 2019, 8:58am

Oldjohnw wrote:Do people ever pay more than £1000 for a bike without a motor, I wonder?

5p per charge? Extortionate.

The bike I electrified cost me about £1200 new iirc. (Plus a few hundred quids worth of ancillaries, lights, panniers...)
Lots of expensive bikes around so I reckon they must. I nearly keep buying a Rohloff so that would be your £1000 straight off - I'm waiting to see how my experience with a Shimano hub pans out.

Battery is 600Wh and I'm guessing my rate is about 15p / kwh at home.

Oldjohnw
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby Oldjohnw » 22 Sep 2019, 9:05am

kwackers wrote:
Oldjohnw wrote:Do people ever pay more than £1000 for a bike without a motor, I wonder?

5p per charge? Extortionate.

The bike I electrified cost me about £1200 new iirc. (Plus a few hundred quids worth of ancillaries, lights, panniers...)
Lots of expensive bikes around so I reckon they must. I nearly keep buying a Rohloff so that would be your £1000 straight off - I'm waiting to see how my experience with a Shimano hub pans out.

Battery is 600Wh and I'm guessing my rate is about 15p / kwh at home.


I was being a bit sarcastic. People say how expensive ebikes are. But then, so can non ebikes be. Of course you can pay big money. But then you can pay big money for any bike. I 'm certainly not saying that the cost is a myth, but you pay a fair amount for any bike intende to last beyond the next couple of weeks of heavy use.

My bike cost £600 to electrify. It is an 18 year old Raleigh hybrid. I doubt cycling gets much cheaper. So far 3 years and 4000 km.
John

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Sweep
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby Sweep » 22 Sep 2019, 11:35am

Can I ask how long it takes to recharge a typical ebike battery?
I assume the recharging is quite slow to avoid trashing the battery/shortening its life.

(Confession - planning ahead - vague visions of recharging in a spoons :) - easygoing as they are.

Confession/question put another way - how much charge/miles of power assist would you get for two pints of charging?
Sweep

reohn2
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby reohn2 » 22 Sep 2019, 11:43am

brynpoeth wrote:They are not available to anyone who wants one, they cost much much more to buy and to run than bwms, bikes without motors, many people cannot afford or cannot thoyle an €bike

OK they're available to anyone who can afford one,but to a lesser extent the same can be said for ordinary bikes.
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kwackers
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby kwackers » 22 Sep 2019, 11:55am

Sweep wrote:Can I ask how long it takes to recharge a typical ebike battery?
I assume the recharging is quite slow to avoid trashing the battery/shortening its life.

(Confession - planning ahead - vague visions of recharging in a spoons :) - easygoing as they are.

Confession/question put another way - how much charge/miles of power assist would you get for two pints of charging?

Mine takes about 6 hours.

If I were doing it myself, I'd go a similar route electric cars go. I'd overrate the battery and configure the BMS to not only balance the pack properly but not to fully charge or fully discharge. Those two things make the difference between a few hundred charge/discharge cycles and a few thousand. In comparison fast charging is less of an issue as long as it doesn't charge the battery at high rate past about 80% to avoid overheating it.

Obviously you'd have more weight to carry about though for a given rating (say 10-20% battery capacity held back).

reohn2
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby reohn2 » 22 Sep 2019, 11:57am

Sweep wrote:Can I ask how long it takes to recharge a typical ebike battery?
I assume the recharging is quite slow to avoid trashing the battery/shortening its life.

(Confession - planning ahead - vague visions of recharging in a spoons :) - easygoing as they are.

Confession/question put another way - how much charge/miles of power assist would you get for two pints of charging?

Our 36volt 600wh battery charges in around five hours with the charger that came with the kit,though there may be faster chargers than that which don't trash the battery
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kwackers
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby kwackers » 22 Sep 2019, 12:02pm

Thinking about it mine must have done near 800 charge/discharge cycles so it can't be that bad...

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Sweep
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby Sweep » 22 Sep 2019, 12:07pm

kwackers wrote:
Sweep wrote:Can I ask how long it takes to recharge a typical ebike battery?
I assume the recharging is quite slow to avoid trashing the battery/shortening its life.

(Confession - planning ahead - vague visions of recharging in a spoons :) - easygoing as they are.

Confession/question put another way - how much charge/miles of power assist would you get for two pints of charging?

Mine takes about 6 hours.

If I were doing it myself, I'd go a similar route electric cars go. I'd overrate the battery and configure the BMS to not only balance the pack properly but not to fully charge or fully discharge. Those two things make the difference between a few hundred charge/discharge cycles and a few thousand. In comparison fast charging is less of an issue as long as it doesn't charge the battery at high rate past about 80% to avoid overheating it.

Obviously you'd have more weight to carry about though for a given rating (say 10-20% battery capacity held back).

Thanks for the reply kwackers.
Two more questions.
bMS?
Balancing the pack?
Sweep

reohn2
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby reohn2 » 22 Sep 2019, 12:08pm

kwackers wrote:Thinking about it mine must have done near 800 charge/discharge cycles so it can't be that bad...

That's a very good rate,if you get another 300 to 400 charger out of it it's paid for itself many times over IMO
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kwackers
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby kwackers » 22 Sep 2019, 12:23pm

Sweep wrote:Two more questions.
bMS?
Balancing the pack?

BMS - battery management system.
This is intimately tied to "balancing the pack".

In simple terms the batteries (of which there are many tens in a typical pack - thousands in a car) are all slightly different. But because they're all wired together if you try to charge one up fully another next to it might overcharge and start to overheat.
Similarly if you discharge one to a safe level, the one next to it might over discharge which can be terminal.

So the job of the BMS is to monitor the batteries (ideally individual, but usually in groups) and tweak their charging and discharging individually to avoid this happening.

There are much more detailed descriptions online if you're interested in this stuff. Suffice to say a good BMS can add years and miles to your battery and is the reason electric cars are as good as they are (whereas your average cheapo power tool barely lasts a couple of charges).

hemo
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Re: 1.2 million E bikes sold in Germany

Postby hemo » 22 Sep 2019, 12:55pm

Sweep wrote:Can I ask how long it takes to recharge a typical ebike battery?
I assume the recharging is quite slow to avoid trashing the battery/shortening its life.

(Confession - planning ahead - vague visions of recharging in a spoons :) - easygoing as they are.

Confession/question put another way - how much charge/miles of power assist would you get for two pints of charging?


Charging time varies depending on the battery capacity measured in Ah (Amp hour ) or as other sellers do in Wh ( Watt hour) and the charge input amps. Typically most chargers are 2a input, faster chargers are 4 -5a input.
14.5ah = 522wh if 36v or 696wh if 48v, 48v for the same capacity has the advantage of +33% increase so you get greater range.
My 23.2ah battery takes 11 -12 hrs for a full charge if DOD is low other I have only take 6- 8 hrs, it is all dependant on capacity all my chargers are 2a .