What's the legal position?

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Ivorcadaver
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What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 2 Oct 2019, 10:31pm

Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?

Ellieb
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ellieb » 2 Oct 2019, 10:42pm

Without being there it is hard to say. Van driver should definitely check his mirrors before turning. On the other hand it is never wise to go up the inside of moving traffic, especially coming up to a junction. Probably not illegal though.

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gaz
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby gaz » 2 Oct 2019, 11:09pm

Sorry to hear of your off.

Filtering is legal, liability following a crash is more likely to be subject to argument than agreement.
Highway Code wrote:Rule 211

It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.

If you have accident/legal support from CTC, BC, home insurance or anywhere else now is the time to use it.
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tim-b
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby tim-b » 3 Oct 2019, 6:17am

Hi
Good advice
If you have accident/legal support from CTC, BC, home insurance or anywhere else now is the time to use it

I suspect this will end in a split liability agreement, but get proper advice from someone with the full facts to hand ASAP
Heal fast
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tim-b
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Postboxer
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Postboxer » 3 Oct 2019, 9:08am

I had a friend who got a fault on her driving test for not checking her left mirror when turning left, I can't quite remember whether it was the reason she failed and therefore a major fault or not.

I would argue that judge mentioned up thread is wrong, you can't put blame down to who hit who can you. Surely it's more who has moved into the other's path. If a car swings across the road and gets hit by a motorcyclist travelling along the road, it is the car driver's fault.

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mjr
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby mjr » 3 Oct 2019, 9:10am

Ellieb wrote:Without being there it is hard to say. Van driver should definitely check his mirrors before turning. On the other hand it is never wise to go up the inside of moving traffic, especially coming up to a junction. Probably not illegal though.

Definitely not illegal to overtake on either side and there are times when the left is the wiser side. Just last week, I saw video of a cyclist being run over after a vehicle abruptly turned right while he was overtaking on that side. However without video like that, I suspect that a driver is unlikely to be convicted.

For liability, I agree that a split decision seems likely (because both were making manoeuvres) so I'd contact legal advice ASAP because even 20% of a dent in a vehicle can be very expensive if they counterclaim.
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Ivorcadaver
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 3 Oct 2019, 9:53am

Thanks for all your advice. I am a ctc member so I'll get in touch. After 7 years of a daily commute through Bolton and Salford with no meaningful cycle infrastructure I think it's now time to give up and throw myself at the mercy of Northern Rail. I have managed to avoid numerous incidents over the past few years by being alert, assertive and visible on the road but I guess a lapse in concentration/luck running out resulted in last night's incident. Mrs Ivorcadaver commented that the phone call she received last night was the one she had dreaded/expected for years. I think I got off lightly; It just isn't worth the risk riding on a regular basis in busy cities in the UK.

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mjr
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby mjr » 3 Oct 2019, 10:01am

Not riding is deadlier than riding, even in the UK. Could you vary your route to use any of the infrastructure being created by Boardman? While not perfect, it should at least both warn drivers to expect cyclists and give you a bit more chance/space to see one about to left hook you
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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MOARspeed
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby MOARspeed » 3 Oct 2019, 2:57pm

There's this perception that overtaking on the left is somehow illegal, but it's not, not by a long stretch, the highway code makes it very clear that overtaking slow moving traffic on the left is perfectly fine, car, bike, motorbike, same rules apply.

I personally won't filter on the left unless i'm in a cycle lane or there are two lanes, or the there's some idiot trying to block me filtering on the right, but that's just how I feel about it.

Pete Owens
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Pete Owens » 3 Oct 2019, 3:38pm

Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


You for overtaking a turning vehicle.

Imagine the situation was reversed - You were turning right when a van coming from behind attempted to overtake and crashed into you.

Pete Owens
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Pete Owens » 3 Oct 2019, 3:52pm

Ellieb wrote:Without being there it is hard to say. Van driver should definitely check his mirrors before turning.

Just as we are taught to do a "lifesaver" shoulder check just before turning right to look out for any moron who might decide to overtake at that moment.

That doesn't mean that the moron can crash into you with impunity and claim that he is not to blame because you should have looked.

ossie
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby ossie » 3 Oct 2019, 5:59pm

Sorry to hear this.

I guess it will all come down to if he was Indicating left prior to you undertaking . The Police would need an independent witness to confirm ie the driver behind. If he was Indicating you may well be deemed to be at fault, I believe the Highway Code offers guidance on filtering at junctions.

If the Police took a statement they will Interview the driver in due course. If no other witnesses I doubt it will go anywhere but you may have a claim through his Insurance as others have suggested.

Ivorcadaver
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 3 Oct 2019, 7:28pm

Pete Owens wrote:
Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


You for overtaking a turning vehicle.

Imagine the situation was reversed - You were turning right when a van coming from behind attempted to overtake and crashed into you.


Good point. I can't for definite say he wasn't signalling but I certainly would not of 'overtaken' if I had seen any signal.

Ivorcadaver
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Joined: 26 Oct 2013, 9:36pm
Location: Bolton

Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 3 Oct 2019, 7:39pm

mjr wrote:Not riding is deadlier than riding, even in the UK. Could you vary your route to use any of the infrastructure being created by Boardman? While not perfect, it should at least both warn drivers to expect cyclists and give you a bit more chance/space to see one about to left hook you

I'm afraid the reality doesn't match the hype. Yes Oxford Rd in the centre of Manchester is an exemplar scheme but absolutely no use to me, there are a few converted ex railway lines but it's business as usual in the suburbs. Segregated cycle lanes in Bolton and Salford just do not exist. I've come off 3 times in the past 7 years due to black ice, wet leaves on one of said converted railway lines (NCN5) and this latest incident in the process I have accrued a broken collar bone, bruised ribs together with my latest injuries. Enough is enough.

ossie
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby ossie » 3 Oct 2019, 7:53pm

Fair play for knocking it on the head..if you excuse the pun.

I really don't get the argument that not riding is deadlier than riding....complete nonsense and easily said until you've been wiped out.

I've had two close work colleagues knocked off on their commutes resulting in Brain damage for one and a broken shoulder for another. They called it a day after years on the bike. My best friends wife was wiped out on her commute by an elderly motorist causing a broken wrist - doesn't commute any more.

My cousins husband was killed two years ago, ironically on a so called green commute to work day.

As you say, there are people at home concerned for your welfare and its your decision.