What's the legal position?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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bigjim
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby bigjim » 4 Oct 2019, 5:26pm

"For every billion miles cycled last year, 30.9 cyclists were killed, while 35.8 pedestrians were killed for every billion miles walked. Both activities are significantly safer than riding a motorbike – 122 motorcyclists are killed for every billion miles driven.2 Sep 2016"
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Pete Owens
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Oct 2019, 5:38pm

mjr wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:
mjr wrote:As crap drivers don't signal, that might mean never overtaking anyone and condemning all cyclists to wait in queues of over-wide motor vehicles. No thanks.


Oh dear - the "Slower vehicle in front - must overtake NOW" syndrome - more commonly associated with a small minority of impatient motorists who will overtake through a pinch point rather than wait a few seconds for an opportunity to overtake safely.

I think you're confusing the well-known Must Get In Front syndrome with a simple desire not to sit in queues of motorists for many minutes unnecessarily when there is clearly space for a cyclist to overtake safely.


No confusion - the situations are identical.

1. Moron motorist sees slower moving cyclist in front - they must get past immediately irrespective of any concern for safety - so they overtake dangerously. And if they crash they blame the cyclist for getting in the way.

2. Moron cyclist sees slower moving car in front - they must get past immediately irrespective of any concern for safety - so they overtake dangerously. And if they crash they blame the driver for getting in the way.

Both the moron motorist and the moron cyclist advocate segregation to clear other road users out of their way. Both assume that the inevitable conflict arising when the segregated paths will be resolved by the other road user noticing and yielding priority to overtaking vehicles coming from behind them.

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mjr
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby mjr » 4 Oct 2019, 6:13pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mjr wrote:I think you're confusing the well-known Must Get In Front syndrome with a simple desire not to sit in queues of motorists for many minutes unnecessarily when there is clearly space for a cyclist to overtake safely.


No confusion - the situations are identical.

Yes, you're confused. The situations are very different:

1. Moron motorist sees slower moving cyclist in front - they must get past immediately irrespective of any concern for safety - so they overtake dangerously. And if they crash they blame the cyclist for getting in the way.

2. Moving cyclist sees queue of stopped motorists in front - they want to get past so they overtake safely with plenty of room. And if a motorist causes a collision or near-miss by suddenly changing lane/line without signalling or checking, the motorist is correctly blamed for performing an unsafe manoeuvre.

Both the moron motorist and the moron cyclist advocate segregation to clear other road users out of their way. Both assume that the inevitable conflict arising when the segregated paths will be resolved by the other road user noticing and yielding priority to overtaking vehicles coming from behind them.

That's wrong on many levels, not least because it ignores that "left hook" collisions occur where the motorist overtakes and immediately turns across the cyclist, and that road users are already told to check adjacent lanes for vehicles approaching from behind before moving across them, as I pointed out in the previous discussion of this point at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=115515 - without any reply

By the way, I think you've missed a word out again in the final sentence above ("when the segregated paths will be resolved"?).
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ossie
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby ossie » 4 Oct 2019, 6:30pm

mjr wrote:I tell no-one to do anything. My comments here are suggestions. I find it even odder that someone pops up on a cycling site to encourage someone to give up cycle-commuting, then gets all aggressive and rude about others encouraging cycling.



My comments are suggestions as well. For someone with a semi permanent confrontational stance on here (and elsewhere) for you to accuse me of being rude and aggressive is the pot calling the kettle black. Quite often your suggestions come over as a lecture and when challenged you do exactly what you're doing now. However this debate is bordering on getting personal so I suggest we back off the Insults eh!

mjr wrote:Very few people go to a gym or a swimming pool several times a week. The only person I know for sure who does is actually a keen cyclist and cycles to the pool!


Apparently 9.7 million people have Gym membership. Obviously they don't all go but I have four gymnasiums, two of which have pools within a three mile radius of my house and they all look extremely busy. You often see the same faces several times a week in the Gym. It is a suitable, safe way of keeping fit.

mjr wrote:There is an estimate but for some reason I'm not motivated to spend any of my extra lifetime looking it up for you(!)



You could always look it up for the OP as it was you who 'suggested' he might die earlier.

mjr wrote:Well, maybe it's not a good idea to let one's self-loathing motivate bad advice to other riders.


Lets get this right. The guy is involved in a serious road traffic accident, I empathise and support his decision (and that of his wife) and you think that's bad advice as he might die younger. You also imply that If he took up an alternative way of raising his heartbeat at a gym for example he wouldn't bother going anyway.

There is life outside of commuting. Its not for everyone due to many factors, road conditions. lack of Infrastructure etc and things exactly like this. To pretend otherwise isn't letting the team down as you blindly seem to think, its a personal choice. I've already said I know several life long cyclists who don't commute any more due to serious Injury caused by some of the cretinous motoring population of this country.

No one questioned their decision.

Ivorcadaver
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 4 Oct 2019, 7:07pm

What exactly do you class as serious Injury and how would I remember you being crashed into by motorists over the years ? I have no idea who you are.

You are trying to persuade some guy who's just been wiped out and who's wife fears for his safety that he might live six months longer doing some crappy commute .

My suggestion is that he joins a gym or sticks a turbo in his garage when he feels up to it and perhaps do the odd weekend ride. Only he can make that decision to return to his commute and if I'm pretty damned sure he will take his families views into it.[/quote]

Precisely sums up the way I'm thinking at the moment.

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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 4 Oct 2019, 7:13pm

Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


Greater Manchester Police rang me this afternoon; driver entirely at fault and has admitted it.

ossie
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby ossie » 4 Oct 2019, 7:20pm

Ivorcadaver wrote:
Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


Greater Manchester Police rang me this afternoon; driver entirely at fault and has admitted it.


Thats excellent news and well done GMP.

I'm sorry the thread has developed in the way it has .Hopefully his admission will lead to some sort of closure and you being compensated for your Injuries. I wish you the best for your recovery.

Ivorcadaver
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 4 Oct 2019, 7:25pm

ossie wrote:
Ivorcadaver wrote:
Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


Greater Manchester Police rang me this afternoon; driver entirely at fault and has admitted it.


Thats excellent news and well done GMP.

I'm sorry the thread has developed in the way it has .Hopefully his admission will lead to some sort of closure and you being compensated for your Injuries. I wish you the best for your recovery.


Thanks for your good wishes.


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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2019, 10:13am

Pete Owens wrote:
Ivorcadaver wrote:Just got home from A&E; broken patella, bruised ribs, skinned knee, skinned elbow, glued up head wound, cracked helmet, buckled wheel and suspect carbon forks. Van left hooked me as I was going on the inside of slow moving traffic, I don't think he signalled. Police and ambulance arrived and I gave a statement to police. Van driver was very shaken and v apologetic. Who was at fault here? Me for filtering up the left of traffic or van driver?


You for overtaking a turning vehicle.

Imagine the situation was reversed - You were turning right when a van coming from behind attempted to overtake and crashed into you.

But what it you pulled from a left hand lane into a right hand lane and collided with a car already travelling a bit faster in the right hand lane?

Ian

Psamathe
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Psamathe » 5 Oct 2019, 10:20am

ossie wrote:Sorry to hear this.

I guess it will all come down to if he was Indicating left prior to you undertaking ......

A genuine question (not related to the OP's accident and not trying to make any point). When somebody indicates to turn or change lane does that give them any "rights"? I ask because sometimes e.g. on a dual a carriageway in a continuous line of moving cars in the right hand lane a car in queue of slower moving cars on the left hand lane will start indicating even though there is no room (without them causing some hard braking). I've always regarded this as "poor behaviour" as nobody in the right hand lane knows if they are imminently going to pull out anyway (some drivers might) or if it's a request or quite what it is.

I only use my indicators when I'm about to manoeuvre. i.e. If I'm in the slower queue I'll have to wait for a gap then indicate and manoeuvre.

Ian

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 5 Oct 2019, 11:40am

Hi,
MSM
I hope we're not confusing overtaking with what I believe the OP (IIRC) Was doing, filtering up the left hand side Within the same lane?

as the OP was injured the motor is always going to be at fault and in this case may be a bit negligent to.
The OP my thank his lucky stars he's got off lightly with injuries.
Maybe a lesson learned there.

Sorry to be so hard on the OP, But I had to say it.
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Ivorcadaver
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 5 Oct 2019, 7:34pm

Hobbled into my local LBS (the excellent Green Machine in Horwich) for a repair quote: nearly £800! So much for fancy integrated hydraulic brake/gear changers (snapped lever) £300, tapered head carbon fork with disc mount (not taking chances after a major impact) £200 plus other bits and pieces and labour. Bike is a Pinnnacle Arkrose and cost about £1000 new 4years ago. I'm going low tech for any possible bike purchases in future.

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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby Ivor Tingting » 6 Oct 2019, 1:33pm

Ivorcadaver wrote:Thanks for all your advice. I am a ctc member so I'll get in touch. After 7 years of a daily commute through Bolton and Salford with no meaningful cycle infrastructure I think it's now time to give up and throw myself at the mercy of Northern Rail. I have managed to avoid numerous incidents over the past few years by being alert, assertive and visible on the road but I guess a lapse in concentration/luck running out resulted in last night's incident. Mrs Ivorcadaver commented that the phone call she received last night was the one she had dreaded/expected for years. I think I got off lightly; It just isn't worth the risk riding on a regular basis in busy cities in the UK.



Ouch! Get well soon. I hope your injuries have started to heal. Ignore the trolls on here. Don't feed the trolls.

It dawned on me years ago that the UK is crap country in which to cycle. I have been knocked down a few times fortunately living to tell the tale. The last occasion I was hit and run in 2014 left for dead on a quiet October evening. After this I promised my family to give up commuting by bicycle as I would surely end up dead. The plod never bothered to catch the driver despite me discovering CCTV nearby some months later which would have got the details of the car that hit me.

In the UK outside of cities and even within, there is very little in terms of proper dedicated cycling infrastructure, just busy roads full of rubbish and pot holes, dangerous ignorant drivers and crap miserable weather most of the time. Most of the police are not interested if you are driven at or knocked down. Even if you do get a copper who is interested in nailing a dangerous driver, the courts are a joke. Most dangerous drivers get off using the SMIDSY defence or simply lying through their teeth. For the minuscule number of dangerous drivers who are unlucky enough to be convicted of a motoring offence they get a slap on the wrist and to keep their licenses albeit after a short ban. UK is really not a fun or safe place to ride a bike. This is why I now only ride on dedicated cycle paths or off road now. Won't ride on the roads. For the roads I have my car or motorbike. And before the trolls start, I feel so much safer riding a motorbike on the roads than a bicycle. I don't get any of the crap that I do when I am cycling. Firstly I am treated with respect rather than being seen as some one to run over because I am holding them up for 3 seconds or they have to think about passing me safely or not as the case may be.

As I say I hope you are feeling better and you get some compo from the driver that knocked you off. Sounds like he failed to keep a proper lookout so was careless and therefore negligent. Good news that the police have actually followed up on this one. I suspect as the driver has made admissions then they will not prosecute but recommend he attend a driver awareness course. Nevertheless his admission of offences will help any civil claim you make against him no end. It will just come down to arguing the value of your injuries, damage to or replacement of bike, any loss of earnings and other costs you incurred which you wouldn't have otherwise had. If you are a CTC member get their solicitors to fight your case. It shouldn't cost you a penny. Good luck.
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Re: What's the legal position?

Postby mjr » 6 Oct 2019, 5:09pm

We will all surely end up dead. Cycling less just means it'll probably be sooner. Cycling in the UK isn't as good as it ought to be, but it's still life extending.

I still think it's really odd to come onto a cycling forum to blame people for cycle commuting or for overtaking.

Glad the motorist has admitted their error and hope their insurer doesn't grumble about repair costs and that the OP heals well.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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