Two out of three?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby kwackers » 13 Dec 2019, 3:30pm

slowster wrote:Neverthless, I look at the photographs and the first thought that comes to mind is that I simply would not want to be in that position on the road (well over into the opposite side of the road) overtaking a long queue of stationary vehicles at night-time, and presumably at rush hour.

Yeah, so this is where it becomes a case of what we think rather than knowing something is good practice.
*My* experience is that if I'm too wide then I quickly vanish into a mirrors blind spot and am there for much longer.
Funnily enough I normally prefer riding at night, bright lights and hi-vis / reflectives make me more visible (if you look!) than during the day.
Obviously that's *my* thoughts.
slowster wrote:Evidently the oncoming traffic is a good distance away, so not an immediate threat, but it looks to me as if that could easily change in a very short time frame, i.e. the stationary vehicles start to move before you can get back to the inside, and you are then stuck in a very exposed and dangerous situation if oncoming traffic approaches.

So I know this junction very well, the oncoming traffic has just stopped at the lights, traffic will now come from the right of the junction and is prohibited from turning left so there'll be no oncoming traffic for another minute or two. Gives me plenty of time to get to the front.
I also get a warning that the lights are going to change several seconds before they do by watching the pedestrian signals.
slowster wrote:That perspective of knowing that I have taken far too much risk in the past when commuting on my bike, is what makes me say that I would probably not overtake the stationary vehicles. Instead I would just slowly filter up the inside. If an inconsiderate driver was hogging the gutter and blocked my progress, I would either just put up with it and wait, or lift my bike onto the pavement to walk past the vehicle and then resume riding.

Slightly less obvious from those stills is that the road becomes two lanes at that point and I want to be in the right hand one.
I have on occasion tested out the inside lane but folk suddenly changing lanes - especially scallies who see no traffic in the left and figure they'll nip in and welly it past the queue when the lights change - I've had a couple of near misses in that lane so give it a miss now.
Also something else that's not visible on the still, I've just passed a bus that will attempt (if it can fit) to go down the left lane, if I follow it in chances are it'll stop at a bus stop and I'll struggle getting back into traffic flow. You also have to be careful - being clipped by a car is a lot better than a bus not spotting that you're in front of it. I've been rear ended by a bus in the past. ;)
slowster wrote:I am sorry to hear that you have had another incident in such a short period of time. Maybe it's just a statistical blip, but in your shoes I would be asking myself if I needed to ride a lot more defensively, even if the price of that was adding significantly more time to my commute.

Get well soon.

I cycle a min of 2-3000 miles a year, last few years I've done 10,000. Statistically more miles means more chances and they're all rush time miles in cities as well which aren't the best.
TBH I understand slow 'can' mean safer but there's always a balance between best safety practices and time. At the moment due to my last off I'm using the train, bike does around a mile each end (so 4 miles) a day.
Safest option is to walk but that adds roughly an hour a day to my commute and I think it's long enough already.
(And obviously this is a journey I do hundreds of times a year with no issues - well, issues but not injuries)

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mjr
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby mjr » 13 Dec 2019, 3:45pm

slowster wrote:Evidently the oncoming traffic is a good distance away, so not an immediate threat, but it looks to me as if that could easily change in a very short time frame, i.e. the stationary vehicles start to move before you can get back to the inside, and you are then stuck in a very exposed and dangerous situation if oncoming traffic approaches.

Even ignoring the local conditions just explained, there seems to be ample opportunity to pull back to the left of the line next to a gap between cars whenever there's oncoming traffic. I'd overtake similar to the OP if the neighbouring lane was clear.

That perspective of knowing that I have taken far too much risk in the past when commuting on my bike, is what makes me say that I would probably not overtake the stationary vehicles. Instead I would just slowly filter up the inside.

I don't follow the logic, so please tell me if I understood the above right: you would overtake on the left without a spare lane where it's less safe with much more risk of being doored or crushed into the kerb because you used to ride rural 60mph A/B roads? I really don't understand why you'd choose to take more risk again just because you did before (if you did before - cycling rural 60 A/Bs is not much fun IMO but safer than most people think).

I hope kwackers keeps preferring to overtake in the empty neighbouring lane on the right!
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slowster
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby slowster » 13 Dec 2019, 4:25pm

I thought about adding the qualifying remark that obviously I did not know the roads, but I didn't because that was, erm, obvious, and kwackers has now provided some important further detail.

The point of my comments about the risks I took in the past, and more importantly how I feel with hindsight that they were too great and that I would not now do the same, was to explain that my perspective may well be much more risk averse than other people's. We all have different levels of risk tolerance, and habituation to riding in given conditions may alter a person's level of risk tolerance.

As someone who no longer rides on heavily trafficked city centre roads, I now have no intention of doing so again, let alone become habituated to the increased risk levels, whether actual or just perceived, that are often associated with it. Occasionally I will filter very slowly inside or outside stationary traffic prior to some traffic lights close to where I live, but that's about the limit for me, and that does not present the extra hazards that kwackers faces, i.e. no need to worry about cars turning right, making a u turn or one lane becoming two further up.

Ultimately for us all it's 'your life, your choice'. Regardless of fault, if I had had three offs in a relatively short period, I would be seriously re-evaluating what I was doing. Something is clearly wrong and just because it was not me or my fault, would not mean that I would be prepared to carry on as I had before.

mattheus
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby mattheus » 13 Dec 2019, 4:36pm

slowster wrote:The point of my comments about the risks I took in the past, and more importantly how I feel with hindsight that they were too great and that I would not now do the same, was to explain that my perspective may well be much more risk averse than other people's. We all have different levels of risk tolerance, and habituation to riding in given conditions may alter a person's level of risk tolerance.

Yes, that's what I thought you meant. Makes sense.



Regardless of fault, if I had had three offs in a relatively short period, I would be seriously re-evaluating what I was doing. Something is clearly wrong and just because it was not me or my fault, would not mean that I would be prepared to carry on as I had before.


Well I would disagree. It is certainly worth considering if you need to change something, but statistics are funny things; someone somewhere today is having "bad luck" for the 5th time this week. Try tossing a coin - do it a few hundred times, and you WILL at some point get 5 tails in a row!

Anyway: my experience from commuting in several towns, as a schoolboy, a student and a "normal" commuter now on semi-rural roads, is that "overtaking" is overall safer than undertaking.
- So they start moving? Fine, a gap WILL appear that you can meld into.
- Drivers are looking right more than left.
- dooring happens more on the left
- you have hazards on the pavement side to worry about.
etc etc …

And you are more visible in mirrors if you stay closer to the vehicles.

Good luck everyone :)

cycle tramp
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby cycle tramp » 13 Dec 2019, 7:29pm

Apologies - just heard of the collision. Nothing really to add - if you had an air horn, fo you think you would have had time to use it?

kwackers
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby kwackers » 13 Dec 2019, 9:54pm

cycle tramp wrote:Apologies - just heard of the collision. Nothing really to add - if you had an air horn, fo you think you would have had time to use it?

Don't think so.
Watching the video you can pretty much see the points at which I spotted something happening, started to take avoiding action and then clip the car.
He was pretty nippy out of his space, in fact even if I sounded the horn instantly he started to move would he have had time to hear it, figure out what it meant and stop?

Us humans are a bit poor, we think we're living moment to moment but the reality is it's all learnt.
Once he makes a conscious decision to move it's quite difficult to stop him because everything after that is automatically done behind the scenes.

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Re: Two out of three?

Postby Vorpal » 14 Dec 2019, 10:01am

Sorry to hear of your off. I thought I said so in my first post, but either I edited it out whilst writing, or I just thought I said it & never actually did. :oops:
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peetee
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby peetee » 14 Dec 2019, 10:12am

Bad luck. Get well soon. London style taxis have an extremely tight turning circle and can appear to move further sideways than forward when they need to.
I can't comment on the exact circumstances but as a general comment I would ride in the middle of the outer lane to reduce the possibility of colliding with a crossing pedestrian that is assuming there was no moving traffic. Also being in that position and using a handlebar or head mounted flashing LED takes your identity out of the taxis view of a string of vehicle headlights behind him. Add in a sprinkling of raindrops on a rear view mirror and the scene becomes a mass of white spots and headlight glare that can easily hide even a dayglow-clad cyclist. For that reason I always use a flashing front light on an urban ride.
Driving through Southampton this weekend an approaching moped rider nearly collided with my car. It was dark, raining and he was overtaking stationary traffic with inches to spare on the centre dashed line and assumed I had seen him and would move over slightly. In reality he was near invisible in the mass of oncoming headlights and reflected glare from road and vehicles.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby The utility cyclist » 14 Dec 2019, 5:33pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:You should have gone more slowly and kept further away from the queuing vehicles
Filtering= overtaking?

victim blaming rubbish, if the OP had been going faster they wouldn't have been struck by the criminal at all :roll:

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Re: Two out of three?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 14 Dec 2019, 5:51pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:You should have gone more slowly and kept further away from the queuing vehicles
Filtering= overtaking?

victim blaming rubbish, if the OP had been going faster they wouldn't have been struck by the criminal at all :roll:

Not victim blaming, one knows that breaking the law is ubiquitous, normal, to be expected

I think the taxi driver should be punished despite his apparent regret, even if the regret is real he should be punished

Were I kwackers I should let the train take the strain
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kwackers
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby kwackers » 14 Dec 2019, 6:42pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:Were I kwackers I should let the train take the strain

Which I am - that's my folding train bike!

Reason I was on it:
20 mins walk each end x 2 OR 5 mins cycling each end x 2.
Saves an hour a day.

In some ways my pre-first-accident commute which involved the full distance was almost safer because it kept me out of the town centres and on roads where I could control traffic - right up until the driver decided they weren't going to be controlled...

Ah well, I'm currently bikeless so options don't exist.
(Good news is the new station opens near me and I can get an express from it too. 5 mins walk instead of 20 and 22 mins on the train instead of 38 so it's a win win!)

In terms of bikes:
I've got a new bike mostly built - although I'm gonna swap some bits around with some of the insurance parts I've bought from accident #1.
My tourer (converted to ebike) which is looking very sorry for itself although I have all the parts is in need of a full strip.
My folder which now has a non rotating front "wheel" (and a few minor scratches) - 26" wheels though so I have no spares.

Apart from being sore and stiff I currently lack time and motivation so it'll be shanks pony until Christmas and then no doubt come the first few days of January when I'm off back to work I'll wonder what happened to the time and why I've managed none of the stuff I was hoping to do - which will probably include making a bike.

I did think about buying a brommie but that would just encourage me to do nothing with the above.

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Re: Two out of three?

Postby kwackers » 12 Aug 2020, 11:07pm

I just thought I'd post an update for this.

Not too unexpectedly the 3rd party insurance accepted full blame.
C19 put the dampers on things and the solicitor handling it left so it got moved to someone else.
Then there was some arguing over costs as usual, I filled out the court papers as per the previous accident and in an identical fashion a bit later they came back with a much more sensible offer which I accepted.

So all done and dusted.

Just in case I didn't mention it earlier the police said they weren't going to take it any further and tbh I'm fine with that.
The taxi driver was v.sorry, Merseyside police very professional and so in the end unlike the previous sorry incident with Cheshire police both being inept and obviously protecting "one of their own" I felt it had been handled well.

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Re: Two out of three?

Postby Vorpal » 13 Aug 2020, 9:50am

I'm glad to see that you got a satisfactory outcome.

Hopefully the driver learned something from it.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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reohn2
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby reohn2 » 13 Aug 2020, 9:58am

Vorpal wrote:I'm glad to see that you got a satisfactory outcome.

Hopefully the driver learned something from it.

Ditto.

Be careful Steve it's a jungle out there :wink:
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Mick F
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Re: Two out of three?

Postby Mick F » 13 Aug 2020, 7:14pm

Good.
Glad it all worked ok in the end, and thanks muchly for getting back to this thread.
Mick F. Cornwall