Why wear black?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Jan 2020, 5:46pm

dim wrote:
gaz wrote:My commuter is set up to be road legal at night. Neither flashing lights nor proviz jackets are involved.

There was me thinking that meeting the legal requirements to ride on the road at night would be enough to expect motorists to see me but no, silly and stupid it is :roll: .


I'm not talking about 'legal' requirements .... I'm talking about old people who drive and who are on heavy medication to keep them alive and who struggle to see even in the day .... a proviz or similar jacket with a decent flashing rear light may save you

Image


Taking such drivers off the road would save many more lives?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Jan 2020, 5:48pm

dim wrote:Oh well, I suppose each to their own.

However, I will continue to wear hi viz and Proviz at night and use a good blinky rear light both in the day and night when I go on long rides. I will also make sure that my children and grandchildren do likewise

You are aware that "blinky lights" are confusing to drivers, making the judgement of distance difficult?

A solid light is theoretically safer.safer

tim-b
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby tim-b » 3 Jan 2020, 5:53pm

Hi
the fear is it creates an image that cycling requires specialised safety equipment because its perceived as risky or riskier activity than using a car

We all seem to forget that most modern cars have a stack of specialised safety equipment including:
ABS
Electronic Stability Control
Electronic Brake Assist
Traction control
Electronic Brakeforce Distribution
Tyre Pressure Monitoring
Seat belts
Air bags

EU legislation from 2021 will add:
Advanced emergency braking
Alcohol interlock installation facilitation
Drowsiness and attention detection
Data recorder
Emergency stop signal
Full-width frontal occupant protection crash test and improved seatbelts
Head impact zone enlargement for pedestrians and cyclists, as well as safety glass
Intelligent speed assistance
Lane keeping assist
Pole side impact occupant protection
Reversing camera or detection system

Who must have insurance/surety, cyclists or drivers?
Which vehicle types must have regular roadworthiness checks?
Who is at greater risk without safety equipment, motorists or cyclists?

Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

slowster
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby slowster » 3 Jan 2020, 6:01pm

pete75 wrote:As I said and from observations in our local supermarket the staff seem to wear High Viz in cold/wet conditions because the protective jackets they're given are high viz. In warm weather they don't wear high viz. I suspect there isn't any hard and fast rule about it.

There will probably be some differences between the various supermarkets in their risk assessments and the extent to which employees and managers comply with each supemarket's rules. I suspect rather than the supermarket's RA not requiring hi viz and the cold weather jackets provided simply coincidentally being hi viz, that the staff at your local supermarket are failing to comply with the company's rules, and more significantly the managers are failing to enforce the rules. I say more significantly, because indifference to and failure to comply with company safety rules is unlikely to be limited to just that particular issue. If they are not complying with safety rules in ways that are readily apparent, I would be concerned that they were similarly breaching other safety rules in ways that were not immediately obvious to me as a customer but potentially far more serious, e.g. blocking fire exits.

In my local supermarket I can recall seeing employees in the car park who do not collect trolleys wearing hi viz, and it was evident that they were in the car park for some duration.

pete75 wrote:You're sort of agreeing with my point which was that if supermarkets make employees wear high viz it's because it's easy not because there is any greater risk of an employee being injured than a customer.

It's both. The risk to an employee is greater than to a customer and hi viz is cheap to provide (and is not restrictive or uncomfortable to wear, unlike most other PPE).
Last edited by slowster on 3 Jan 2020, 6:12pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 3 Jan 2020, 6:03pm

And yet the KSI rate for motorists is not greatly different to that of cyclists, and the head injury numbers greatly exceed cyclists, in spite of all these "safety" devices. Why, I wonder.

dim
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby dim » 3 Jan 2020, 6:20pm

Cunobelin wrote:
dim wrote:Oh well, I suppose each to their own.

However, I will continue to wear hi viz and Proviz at night and use a good blinky rear light both in the day and night when I go on long rides. I will also make sure that my children and grandchildren do likewise

You are aware that "blinky lights" are confusing to drivers, making the judgement of distance difficult?

A solid light is theoretically safer.safer


not in my books ....

as a cyclist and a driver of a car, a fellow cyclist with a good strong light on bright flashing mode is more visible to me on pitch dark roads (even in the day time) than a solid light ... (or should I say I am more aware and alert when someone is using a strong flashing light)

even as a cyclist in the day .... you can spot the guys a mile away who are using proper rear lights on flash mode

same goes for high viz/reflective gear .... you can spot someone a mile ahead who's wearing a Proviz (or similar jacket) .... as a cyclist yourself, you should know as these are becoming very popular especially with cyclists who commute from home to work and back in winter when it's dark ...

but like I said, each to their own .... I will continue to use a strong flashing rear light in the dark and I will continue to wear a proviz reflect jacket .... I feel safer

what you wear or use is of no concern to me :P

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 3 Jan 2020, 7:28pm

dim wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
dim wrote:Oh well, I suppose each to their own.

However, I will continue to wear hi viz and Proviz at night and use a good blinky rear light both in the day and night when I go on long rides. I will also make sure that my children and grandchildren do likewise

You are aware that "blinky lights" are confusing to drivers, making the judgement of distance difficult?

A solid light is theoretically safer.safer


not in my books ....

as a cyclist and a driver of a car, a fellow cyclist with a good strong light on bright flashing mode is more visible to me on pitch dark roads (even in the day time) than a solid light ... (or should I say I am more aware and alert when someone is using a strong flashing light)

even as a cyclist in the day .... you can spot the guys a mile away who are using proper rear lights on flash mode

same goes for high viz/reflective gear .... you can spot someone a mile ahead who's wearing a Proviz (or similar jacket) .... as a cyclist yourself, you should know as these are becoming very popular especially with cyclists who commute from home to work and back in winter when it's dark ...

but like I said, each to their own .... I will continue to use a strong flashing rear light in the dark and I will continue to wear a proviz reflect jacket .... I feel safer

what you wear or use is of no concern to me :P



My 30 mile round trip cycle commute is all in the dark during winter. I have my front lamp solid on low ( to save battery ) cos it's a strong focused light and angled slightly down mainly so I can see potholes, large stones, sheep, cows, badgers, people without hi vis walking etc etc. The other reason it's on solid is I know there are epileptics behind the wheel of cars ( I know them personally )

The rear I leave on slow flash and just hope the epileptics crash before they get my length. :roll:

jimlews
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby jimlews » 3 Jan 2020, 7:33pm

Black beauty, which above that common light,
Whose Power can no colours here renew
But those which darkness can again subdue,
Dost still remain unvary'd to the sight,

And like an object equal to the view,
Art neither chang'd with day, nor hid with night;
When all those colours which the world call bright,
And which old Poetry doth so persue,
Are with the night so perished and gone,
That of their being there remains no mark,
Thou still abidest so intirely one,
That we may know thy blackness is a spark
Of light inaccessible, and alone
Our darkness which can make us think it dark.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Jan 2020, 7:51pm

Cowsham wrote:
dim wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:You are aware that "blinky lights" are confusing to drivers, making the judgement of distance difficult?

A solid light is theoretically safer.safer


not in my books ....

as a cyclist and a driver of a car, a fellow cyclist with a good strong light on bright flashing mode is more visible to me on pitch dark roads (even in the day time) than a solid light ... (or should I say I am more aware and alert when someone is using a strong flashing light)

even as a cyclist in the day .... you can spot the guys a mile away who are using proper rear lights on flash mode

same goes for high viz/reflective gear .... you can spot someone a mile ahead who's wearing a Proviz (or similar jacket) .... as a cyclist yourself, you should know as these are becoming very popular especially with cyclists who commute from home to work and back in winter when it's dark ...

but like I said, each to their own .... I will continue to use a strong flashing rear light in the dark and I will continue to wear a proviz reflect jacket .... I feel safer

what you wear or use is of no concern to me :P



My 30 mile round trip cycle commute is all in the dark during winter. I have my front lamp solid on low ( to save battery ) cos it's a strong focused light and angled slightly down mainly so I can see potholes, large stones, sheep, cows, badgers, people without hi vis walking etc etc. The other reason it's on solid is I know there are epileptics behind the wheel of cars ( I know them personally )

The rear I leave on slow flash and just hope the epileptics crash before they get my length. :roll:



So we have moved on from drugged up old people to Epileptics as the unlikely fictional source of danger?.

Ignoring the minor fact that anyone with a history of fits would not be driving so would not be a danger anyway.... the ones you know personally are either driving safely without fits or driving illegally



According to the British Epileptic Association, they have one recorded episode of an epileptic episode triggered by a flashing bicycle light. Even that one is not valid for normal use. The individual was installing the light at the time, and it is thought that the close proximity was the main factor. They have no recorded cases of flashing bicycle lights triggering epilepsy in normal use.

So another complete red herring

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 3 Jan 2020, 8:40pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
dim wrote:
not in my books ....

as a cyclist and a driver of a car, a fellow cyclist with a good strong light on bright flashing mode is more visible to me on pitch dark roads (even in the day time) than a solid light ... (or should I say I am more aware and alert when someone is using a strong flashing light)

even as a cyclist in the day .... you can spot the guys a mile away who are using proper rear lights on flash mode

same goes for high viz/reflective gear .... you can spot someone a mile ahead who's wearing a Proviz (or similar jacket) .... as a cyclist yourself, you should know as these are becoming very popular especially with cyclists who commute from home to work and back in winter when it's dark ...

but like I said, each to their own .... I will continue to use a strong flashing rear light in the dark and I will continue to wear a proviz reflect jacket .... I feel safer

what you wear or use is of no concern to me :P



My 30 mile round trip cycle commute is all in the dark during winter. I have my front lamp solid on low ( to save battery ) cos it's a strong focused light and angled slightly down mainly so I can see potholes, large stones, sheep, cows, badgers, people without hi vis walking etc etc. The other reason it's on solid is I know there are epileptics behind the wheel of cars ( I know them personally )

The rear I leave on slow flash and just hope the epileptics crash before they get my length. :roll:



So we have moved on from drugged up old people to Epileptics as the unlikely fictional source of danger?.

Ignoring the minor fact that anyone with a history of fits would not be driving so would not be a danger anyway.... the ones you know personally are either driving safely without fits or driving illegally



According to the British Epileptic Association, they have one recorded episode of an epileptic episode triggered by a flashing bicycle light. Even that one is not valid for normal use. The individual was installing the light at the time, and it is thought that the close proximity was the main factor. They have no recorded cases of flashing bicycle lights triggering epilepsy in normal use.

So another complete red herring


It most definitely is not a red herring -- I'm not a medical person so don't know if flashing cycle lights would affect an epileptic but I know a few who whilst they may have not had a fit in a while are driving the lethal killing machine so a steady front light is better for all -- you to see the road ahead and the driver of the oncoming potentially lethal machine.

Also I hate the hour of flashing light in the pitch darkness. ( we have vways of making you vwalk )

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mjr
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mjr » 3 Jan 2020, 9:27pm

Cowsham wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Cowsham wrote:Is there a fibre optic lead that could be mounted on your handle bars to let you see if your rear lamp is still on? That would be a good addition on long journeys.


What's the chance of an LED light failing though? In any case a glance behind will show if the rear light is working.



Couldn't find anything online so going to make something up -- just to see if it can be done -- the fibre itself won't weigh anything but may need a side entry prism adapter at the rear lamp. Good thing about it is the cable itself will only fail off.

Just mount the rear light where you can see it when you look back. I favour the rear of the rack or the drive-side seat stay. Others disagree and say just fit two lights.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Vorpal
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jan 2020, 10:07pm

I often have two lights. I usually have one on my rear rack or rack pack, and one on a rear stay or something. It somewhat depends on the bike & set-up.

If I am touring, I seldom need lights because I tour in summer & dark comes long asfter I have stopped for the day. My tourer does have a rack mounted rear light.

If I am just popping to the shops, even in the dark, I usually only have one light. My route to the shops is mostly motor traffic free, and it's only a half mile, anyway. I can always walk.

Going to work, or longer rides in winter, I either have two lights mounted, or one mounted & a spare in the bag.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 3 Jan 2020, 11:10pm

Vorpal wrote:I often have two lights. I usually have one on my rear rack or rack pack, and one on a rear stay or something. It somewhat depends on the bike & set-up.

If I am touring, I seldom need lights because I tour in summer & dark comes long asfter I have stopped for the day. My tourer does have a rack mounted rear light.

If I am just popping to the shops, even in the dark, I usually only have one light. My route to the shops is mostly motor traffic free, and it's only a half mile, anyway. I can always walk.

Going to work, or longer rides in winter, I either have two lights mounted, or one mounted & a spare in the bag.


It's so nice to get a bit of daylight cycling after every ride to work is pitch dark and bitterly cold starts -- enjoyed some great rides in over the Xmas holidays on my new bike which now has all the bells and whistles I want on it -- just need a rear mudguard reflector to finish it.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 4 Jan 2020, 7:25am

Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:

My 30 mile round trip cycle commute is all in the dark during winter. I have my front lamp solid on low ( to save battery ) cos it's a strong focused light and angled slightly down mainly so I can see potholes, large stones, sheep, cows, badgers, people without hi vis walking etc etc. The other reason it's on solid is I know there are epileptics behind the wheel of cars ( I know them personally )

The rear I leave on slow flash and just hope the epileptics crash before they get my length. :roll:



So we have moved on from drugged up old people to Epileptics as the unlikely fictional source of danger?.

Ignoring the minor fact that anyone with a history of fits would not be driving so would not be a danger anyway.... the ones you know personally are either driving safely without fits or driving illegally



According to the British Epileptic Association, they have one recorded episode of an epileptic episode triggered by a flashing bicycle light. Even that one is not valid for normal use. The individual was installing the light at the time, and it is thought that the close proximity was the main factor. They have no recorded cases of flashing bicycle lights triggering epilepsy in normal use.

So another complete red herring


It most definitely is not a red herring -- I'm not a medical person so don't know if flashing cycle lights would affect an epileptic but I know a few who whilst they may have not had a fit in a while are driving the lethal killing machine so a steady front light is better for all -- you to see the road ahead and the driver of the oncoming potentially lethal machine.

Also I hate the hour of flashing light in the pitch darkness. ( we have vways of making you vwalk )


Unevidenced personal opinion.... Epileptics as the new bête noire is no more convincing then the drugged up old people.

Please see the evidence above - if they are driving legally, then there is no greater risk than the average driver
Last edited by Cunobelin on 4 Jan 2020, 7:55am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 4 Jan 2020, 7:49am

mjr wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What's the chance of an LED light failing though? In any case a glance behind will show if the rear light is working.



Couldn't find anything online so going to make something up -- just to see if it can be done -- the fibre itself won't weigh anything but may need a side entry prism adapter at the rear lamp. Good thing about it is the cable itself will only fail off.

Just mount the rear light where you can see it when you look back. I favour the rear of the rack or the drive-side seat stay. Others disagree and say just fit two lights.



I alternate lights.

Front has a pair of Exposure high power lights on the front. One in flashing, one on constant, then on the way home just swap over guaranteeing enough batter life.

Rear has a pair of high power LEDS, again one flashing, one constant and change over

Never had a failure...


The other advantage is that being inside the fairing, the lights illuminate the fairing giving a wide area to be seen.