Why wear black?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Cugel
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cugel » 10 Jan 2020, 9:58am

Vorpal wrote:Maybe all school uniforms should be made in hi viz. We can even use it as an experiment. If all British school children suddenly had to wear hi viz all day every school day, one would think that the benefits would be statistically obvious.

p.s. just to be clear, this post is not meant seriously


The most dangerous humans are businessmen and technologists/scientists. They should be overseen for every second of every day of every week of every month of every year of every century! They are rascals causing the most horrendous harms, here there and everywhere. Bankers should also be considered for the oversight. And those politicians.

Therefore they should all wear fluo-red (red for danger) and also have a large always-on klaxon strapped to the tops of their heads. We may then easily spot a-one and deal with them accordingly. Of course, no one will agree on "accordingly". Also, the businessmen and technologist/scientists won't cooperate. The bankers and politicians will pretend they are cooperating but will neglect to don the red vest and klaxon at every turn.

Cugel, practicing loon-logic.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 12:06pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

.. and the evidence that Orange ie best?


Most elephants wear yellow, you'll be see even when the elephant is hiding upside down in custard before they jump out in front of you.

Downside, especially here, is marching season -- I might blend in, get badly confused, end up carrying a banner and get shot by an angry Catholic. Instead I'll don the yellow vis and risk the elephants in the hedges.


Marching is an interesting one. I have lived for many years in towns where the Military live and work. Cyclists in camouflage are common, as are cyclists in dark green or black. uniforms. Yet these towns do not feature more highly in accident statistics. We know that the camouflage is effective, yet all the drivers seem to see the cyclists and pedestrians....


Drivers are probably acutely aware of a military presence in said town so behave themselves better. Cycling in camouflage here would put you in a different kind of danger but no more deadly.

The other way round about a year ago I was cycling in town and almost cycled out of a T junction in front a car which was green against a green hedge coming from my right he wasn't speeding or doing anything wrong. That would have been my fault completely. Saw him at the last moment so only moved a few inches but I knew that could have been a costly mistake.

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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Vorpal » 10 Jan 2020, 12:20pm

Cowsham wrote:
Drivers are probably acutely aware of a military presence in said town so behave themselves better. Cycling in camouflage here would put you in a different kind of danger but no more deadly.

The other way round about a year ago I was cycling in town and almost cycled out of a T junction in front a car which was green against a green hedge coming from my right he wasn't speeding or doing anything wrong. That would have been my fault completely. Saw him at the last moment so only moved a few inches but I knew that could have been a costly mistake.

Do I understand this correctly? If a pedestrian or cyclist makes themselves 'invisible' by their attire, it's their fault, but a car is rendered 'invisible' by it's attire, it is the observers fault?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Jan 2020, 1:36pm

Vorpal wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Drivers are probably acutely aware of a military presence in said town so behave themselves better. Cycling in camouflage here would put you in a different kind of danger but no more deadly.

The other way round about a year ago I was cycling in town and almost cycled out of a T junction in front a car which was green against a green hedge coming from my right he wasn't speeding or doing anything wrong. That would have been my fault completely. Saw him at the last moment so only moved a few inches but I knew that could have been a costly mistake.

Do I understand this correctly? If a pedestrian or cyclist makes themselves 'invisible' by their attire, it's their fault, but a car is rendered 'invisible' by it's attire, it is the observers fault?



A classic hypocrisy raised earlier in the Thread, why do we not get the hysteria about black cars and the proven higher accident rates

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 1:39pm

Vorpal wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Drivers are probably acutely aware of a military presence in said town so behave themselves better. Cycling in camouflage here would put you in a different kind of danger but no more deadly.

The other way round about a year ago I was cycling in town and almost cycled out of a T junction in front a car which was green against a green hedge coming from my right he wasn't speeding or doing anything wrong. That would have been my fault completely. Saw him at the last moment so only moved a few inches but I knew that could have been a costly mistake.

Do I understand this correctly? If a pedestrian or cyclist makes themselves 'invisible' by their attire, it's their fault, but a car is rendered 'invisible' by it's attire, it is the observers fault?


Roads are for legal cars and legal bikes ( with lights and reflectors ) pedestrians have footpaths

I wouldn't buy a green black or dark coloured car - that's my choice.

I wouldn't buy dark cycle gear -- that's my choice

I won't force my choices on other people.

The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )

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mjr
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mjr » 10 Jan 2020, 2:15pm

Cowsham wrote:I won't force my choices on other people.

Do you not count unjustified emotional blackmail like "it's better than dead. You will be cool enough when your dead" as a forcing attempt?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Vorpal
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Vorpal » 10 Jan 2020, 2:24pm

Cowsham wrote:
Roads are for legal cars and legal bikes ( with lights and reflectors ) pedestrians have footpaths

I wouldn't buy a green black or dark coloured car - that's my choice.

I wouldn't buy dark cycle gear -- that's my choice

I won't force my choices on other people.

The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )

Actually, roads are rights of way. Except for motorways, and other special roads, pedestrians and cyclists use them by right. Drivers can only drive on them with a licence to do so and a vehicle with correct insurance and paid VED.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Cugel
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cugel » 10 Jan 2020, 3:25pm

Vorpal wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Roads are for legal cars and legal bikes ( with lights and reflectors ) pedestrians have footpaths

I wouldn't buy a green black or dark coloured car - that's my choice.

I wouldn't buy dark cycle gear -- that's my choice

I won't force my choices on other people.

The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )

Actually, roads are rights of way. Except for motorways, and other special roads, pedestrians and cyclists use them by right. Drivers can only drive on them with a licence to do so and a vehicle with correct insurance and paid VED.


Just so. Those who doubt it may come to West Wales where many, many small villages have grown up around the cart tracks that are now roads. The nature of the track (between high turf-clad walls, roadside house,s narrow and bendy) means that there are long stretches where there's no footpath and nowhere to put a footpath without narrowing the road to one car width.

Now, I would have the one car-width roads and a double footpath .... but this is not going to happen for the usual reasons of financial and cultural inertia. Therefore those who live in West Wales must deal with numerous pedestrians walking from A to B down these narrow, bendy roads sans footpath. Many drivers are careful and considerate of such peds, not least because they are sometimes the peds too.

But others are not careful and considerate. As a result there are frequent near misses and, sadly, some hits. All the roads about the place have signs saying "N casualties from 2013 - 2017" (the last count, I presume). Even roads as short as a couple of miles have such signs announcing casualty numbers in the mid-teens, not single figures.

A month ago a neighbour in our village (which is around 1,5 miles long on a B-road with a foolishly high "limit" of 40mph for such a stretch with numerous gateways and side roads) was hit by the wing mirror of a van and then brushed by a following lorry as she staggered a bit from the blow. Luckily (I suppose) just severe bruising and a nasty shock .... but another couple of inches and it could have been fatal. Neither vehicle stopped. They were both doing over 40mph in her estimation, with the lorry tailgating the van.

****
There is a current cultural assumption that motorised drivers "own the road". No one gainsays this stupid assumption except a few oldpharts cyclists on forums such as this.

Cugel

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 10 Jan 2020, 3:47pm

Cowsham wrote:
The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )


Cyclists may be thought suicidal by motorists for using the road at all, and it is ridiculous to suggest they are. They are actually doing their best not get killed by purblind drivers.
Pedestrians do not jump out in front of cars, but they do have to cross the road, which is quite legal, and as Cugel points out, not all roads have footpaths.
Roads are for all to use, and if they are not safe for all users, this is a severe restriction on free movement.

Motorists tend to believe they own the roads, and I have to say, it seems you do too.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 3:54pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )


Cyclists may be thought suicidal by motorists for using the road at all, and it is ridiculous to suggest they are. They are actually doing their best not get killed by purblind drivers
.


That's what I do

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 10 Jan 2020, 4:06pm

Cowsham wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )


Cyclists may be thought suicidal by motorists for using the road at all, and it is ridiculous to suggest they are. They are actually doing their best not get killed by purblind drivers
.


That's what I do


And they are no different from you in their desire to live, so do not call them suicidal.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 4:08pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
The car driver can wear whatever they want but compulsory CPR training would be beneficial for suicidal cyclists and pedestrians who jump or cycle out in front of cars from side roads etc ( as I almost did )


Motorists tend to believe they own the roads, and I have to say, it seems you do too.


I don't but other motorists do and always will so I have to bear that in mind -- if they paint the roads and hedges bright yellow and orange I may consider wearing all black.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 4:22pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Cyclists may be thought suicidal by motorists for using the road at all, and it is ridiculous to suggest they are. They are actually doing their best not get killed by purblind drivers
.


That's what I do


And they are no different from you in their desire to live, so do not call them suicidal.


I'm on the roads most days with a bicycle and ride all winter mostly in pitch dark roads so and I know I get called suicidal from time to time -- it doesn't bother me -- I am aware of the risk -- if I can make my visibility better I will even if it means wearing all black -- until I think that's the way to go I'll continue doing what I do. I can hear motorists slow down from a long way back so I know it works. ( or at least perceive it works )

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 10 Jan 2020, 4:23pm

Cowsham wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
That's what I do


And they are no different from you in their desire to live, so do not call them suicidal.


I'm on the roads most days with a bicycle and ride all winter mostly in pitch dark roads so and I know I get called suicidal from time to time -- it doesn't bother me -- I am aware of the risk -- if I can make my visibility better I will even if it means wearing all black -- until I think that's the way to go I'll continue doing what I do. I can hear motorists slow down from a long way back so I know it works. ( or at least perceive it works )


Other cyclists may not agree with you about how to be safe, but that does not justify you calling them suicidal.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 4:29pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
And they are no different from you in their desire to live, so do not call them suicidal.


I'm on the roads most days with a bicycle and ride all winter mostly in pitch dark roads so and I know I get called suicidal from time to time -- it doesn't bother me -- I am aware of the risk -- if I can make my visibility better I will even if it means wearing all black -- until I think that's the way to go I'll continue doing what I do. I can hear motorists slow down from a long way back so I know it works. ( or at least perceive it works )


Other cyclists may not agree with you about how to be safe, but that does not justify you calling them suicidal.


I was really just quoting what someone else said mentioning suicidal cyclists if you care to scroll back a few pages.