Why wear black?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 10 Jan 2020, 8:47pm

Cowsham wrote:
I wonder if the ones vehemently preaching against hi vis are in some doubt about their own all black attire. It's like you need my approval to continue wearing it -- you don't -- but if you were confident your kit is adequate for the job or as some put it not required to do the job of keeping you visible, you wouldn't be defending it for nearly 40 pages, you'd simply give me a fools pardon and move on.



NO - because there is a significant effort being put in by people like you... who think that anything that affects other people is worth it if it saves one life - but back down from that when the effects are on them (driving helmets would save more lives, walking helmets, drinking helmets...).

I don't give a fools pardon to those who are attempting to create a fascist state anywhere in the world, I point out their errors - despite their stupidity.
For an example of said tenacity in the face of ignorance please see the rockets can't work thread.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 9:00pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
I wonder if the ones vehemently preaching against hi vis are in some doubt about their own all black attire. It's like you need my approval to continue wearing it -- you don't -- but if you were confident your kit is adequate for the job or as some put it not required to do the job of keeping you visible, you wouldn't be defending it for nearly 40 pages, you'd simply give me a fools pardon and move on.



NO - because there is a significant effort being put in by people like you... who think that anything that affects other people is worth it if it saves one life - but back down from that when the effects are on them (driving helmets would save more lives, walking helmets, drinking helmets...).




Over my head sorry.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Jan 2020, 10:08pm

Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Remember the illegal cyclist?
No I don't remember the uncontrolled sliding
You are misquoting again -- Varpol ?


So you don't remember your own posts... convenient


You changed my post when you quoted it -- I can't be bothered to reply to someone who stoops that low to defend their side of the debate or not read posts before they comment on it.


You do know that it is not possible to change someone else's posts?

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 10:15pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
So you remember your own posts
Congratulations your a fine fella
convenient


You changed my post when you quoted it -- I can't be bothered to reply to someone who stoops that low to defend their side of the debate or not read posts before they comment on it.


You do know that it is not possible to change someone else's posts?


Is that so?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Jan 2020, 10:22pm

Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
You changed my post when you quoted it -- I can't be bothered to reply to someone who stoops that low to defend their side of the debate or not read posts before they comment on it.


You do know that it is not possible to change someone else's posts?


Is that so?


Absolutely ... I am quite happy for you to show which of your posts that you are claiming that I changed.

However, you have now changed your allegations. I am also absolutely happy for you to list any post where I have misquoted you

Let's take control of your car claims

Your EXACT post was:

Cowsham wrote:
The guy was incredibly lucky. I stopped to tell him so. He saw my car slide sideways down the road in front of him but didn't realise why until I pointed out the rear lamp not working. His face went white.


You then decided that you were in fact fully in control!

Cowsham
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cowsham » 10 Jan 2020, 10:27pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
You do know that it is not possible to change someone else's posts?


Is that so?


Absolutely ... I am quite happy for you to show which of your posts that you are claiming that I changed.

Let's take the control of your car

Your EXACT post was:

Cowsham wrote:
The guy was incredibly lucky. I stopped to tell him so. He saw my car slide sideways down the road in front of him but didn't realise why until I pointed out the rear lamp not working. His face went white.


Not uncontrolled then?

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Jan 2020, 10:56pm

Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Is that so?


Absolutely ... I am quite happy for you to show which of your posts that you are claiming that I changed.

Let's take the control of your car

Your EXACT post was:

Cowsham wrote:
The guy was incredibly lucky. I stopped to tell him so. He saw my car slide sideways down the road in front of him but didn't realise why until I pointed out the rear lamp not working. His face went white.


Not uncontrolled then?


As previously, you have a reasonably open corner, yet were travelling at a speed that you were unable to brake and remain travelling in a straight line. A car sliding sideways is not under control by any sane definition of the word

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby The utility cyclist » 10 Jan 2020, 11:09pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Absolutely ... I am quite happy for you to show which of your posts that you are claiming that I changed.

Let's take the control of your car

Your EXACT post was:



Not uncontrolled then?


As previously, you have a reasonably open corner, yet were travelling at a speed that you were unable to brake and remain travelling in a straight line. A car sliding sideways is not under control by any sane definition of the word

You're wasting your time, their modus operandi is obvious, no point responding to these types of posters.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Jan 2020, 6:23pm

dim wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:The reason track workers wear orange rather than any other colour is largely because it cannot be mistaken in the distance for a signal colour.


nope, don't think so ... heres the spec:

https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/article/30804/visibility-rail-safety/

https://www.satra.com/spotlight/article.php?id=209

Those are interesting, especially the Global Review article that emphasises the importance of breathability and waterproofing, but I couldn't find anything in them that says why orange is specified rather than yellow.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Jan 2020, 6:27pm

Cunobelin wrote:
dim wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

.. and the evidence that Orange ie best?


guys who work on the railway lines all wear orange with hi viz reflective stripes .... the railway companies would have spent a lot of time and money researching what's best

my own opinion seeing things with my own eyes, is that orange definately stands out for me during the daytime even in Autumn as you are cycling on black tarmac

yellow is also ok but for cycling, if the rapeseed fields are in blossom it's useless (plus you get a zillion black flies that home in to you)

night time ... Proviz reflect is amazing .... its like wearing a giant light on your torso


You do know that Railway workers use Orange because orange is a standardised colour within the industry NOT because if its conspicuity. The idea is that by training their staff that Orange is a hazard, this recognition helps them respond appropriately.

A subconscious response to color is a form of recognition. Colors can help drivers and equipment operators recognize workers. While fluorescent yellow is the brightest color on the chromaticity scale and the most widely used, orange hi-vis PPE has strong recognition as a hazard identifier - orange means “caution” or “watch out.”

Orange has been widely used in road construction signs, cones, barrels and delineators. Orange is also featured in the auto warning triangle. In road construction, orange may be the color of recognition for a driver because it is associated with roadside work. Orange also has a strong position in identifying humans while hunting.

Yes, standardisation and 'response training' is another important factor. Thanks for raising it!

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 11 Jan 2020, 7:14pm

Cowsham wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
Cowsham wrote:
I wonder if the ones vehemently preaching against hi vis are in some doubt about their own all black attire. It's like you need my approval to continue wearing it -- you don't -- but if you were confident your kit is adequate for the job or as some put it not required to do the job of keeping you visible, you wouldn't be defending it for nearly 40 pages, you'd simply give me a fools pardon and move on.



NO - because there is a significant effort being put in by people like you... who think that anything that affects other people is worth it if it saves one life - but back down from that when the effects are on them (driving helmets would save more lives, walking helmets, drinking helmets...).




Over my head sorry.

I don't think Bob's point is all that high-brow if you actually read it. <sigh>

Never mind - I may try to word something else in answer to your question ...

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 11 Jan 2020, 7:20pm

Cowsham wrote:I wonder if the ones vehemently preaching against hi vis are in some doubt about their own all black attire. It's like you need my approval to continue wearing it -- you don't -- but if you were confident your kit is adequate for the job or as some put it not required to do the job of keeping you visible, you wouldn't be defending it for nearly 40 pages, you'd simply give me a fools pardon and move on.

Is there something wrong with all black cycling attire, or is it fine and safer than hi vis? -- you decide.


The issue is that a loud significant public minority blame a lot of cyclists KSIs on lack-of-HiViz, and campaign for cyclists to require this stuff.


Surely you can see that supporting this view is going to irritate your fellow cyclist?

< SNIP - no, not an acceptable analogy >
Sorry! I couldn't think of a milder more proportionate analogy, mea culpa Hopefully you get the idea ... )
Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby The utility cyclist » 11 Jan 2020, 11:07pm

Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

Why is the analogy outrageous I wonder?
Currently people on bikes are:
Being forced to modify their behaviour and garments otherwise be blamed for death/injury, in fact called out as basically deserving to cop it if not conforming, this very forum there are the disgusting use of the 'Darwin' phrases.
If you don't conform you are excluded from cycling within certain groups and gatherings, rides.
if you don't conform you are called all sorts of insulting names.

Then you have the current experience of daily physical fear of harm by criminals, mostly ignored by those who swore to uphold the law but they do basically nothing. Hate and abuse is displayed daily by the general public and in the media, via radio, television, social media and print, virtually none of it removed or addressed such that the hatred and vitriol gathers pace.

Deaths and injuries within the 'outgroup' happen as a result of the hate and lack of protection by those who should be doing so.
more blame on the victims, including persecution, unlawful and discriminatory action by police and judges which again leads to more deaths and injuries and more persecution due to next to zero deterrent.

Are people on bikes being exterminated, well actually yes, needlessly and by criminals for the most part, the authorities are dong nothing, they are complicit in the deaths by their inaction and continued avenue of telling everyone that the outgroup must conform or whatever happens is your fault, despite the fact by conforming this has actually made matters worse not better :twisted:

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Cugel
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cugel » 12 Jan 2020, 9:43am

The utility cyclist wrote:Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

Why is the analogy outrageous I wonder?
Currently people on bikes are:
Being forced to modify their behaviour and garments otherwise be blamed for death/injury, in fact called out as basically deserving to cop it if not conforming, this very forum there are the disgusting use of the 'Darwin' phrases.
If you don't conform you are excluded from cycling within certain groups and gatherings, rides.
if you don't conform you are called all sorts of insulting names.

Then you have the current experience of daily physical fear of harm by criminals, mostly ignored by those who swore to uphold the law but they do basically nothing. Hate and abuse is displayed daily by the general public and in the media, via radio, television, social media and print, virtually none of it removed or addressed such that the hatred and vitriol gathers pace.

Deaths and injuries within the 'outgroup' happen as a result of the hate and lack of protection by those who should be doing so.
more blame on the victims, including persecution, unlawful and discriminatory action by police and judges which again leads to more deaths and injuries and more persecution due to next to zero deterrent.

Are people on bikes being exterminated, well actually yes, needlessly and by criminals for the most part, the authorities are dong nothing, they are complicit in the deaths by their inaction and continued avenue of telling everyone that the outgroup must conform or whatever happens is your fault, despite the fact by conforming this has actually made matters worse not better :twisted:


I agree - it was a suitable analogy despite the scale of the harms being much lower for the cyclists. The point about such analogies is to show that exactly the same attitudes and consequent behaviours underlie the issue being discussed as underlay another issue that escalated to a horrendous degree in the past.

But those who don't wish to see their behaviour as being similar, related-to or near-identical to the behaviour of past monsters of history will obviously object. "I would never go that far". Of course, they would (some individuals already do) if society at large gave them permission. We may be on the cusp of such permissions being given for all sorts of nasty persecutions, though - some of them almost identical to those of the past. Anti-semitism and similar attitudes are very much on the rise just now, for example. Windrush was ethnic cleansing in disguise, as is much of current and proposed immigration policy.

Cyclists aren't persecuted Jews....? Not yet - but the harbingers are there.Cyclists may never morph into full persecution-fodder but they might. It's not that hard, in the present state of socio-political turmoil, to imagine a motorised mob going out to hunt down and run over cyclists as some sort of sport-come-"social justice", a la Kristallnacht, with the authorities looking on or performing inaction with tacit agreement for the persecution. "They should keep to their cyclepath ghettos and wear their yellow stars, er, vests".

Cugel

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 12 Jan 2020, 12:58pm

Cugel wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

Why is the analogy outrageous I wonder?
Currently people on bikes are:
Being forced to modify their behaviour and garments otherwise be blamed for death/injury, in fact called out as basically deserving to cop it if not conforming, this very forum there are the disgusting use of the 'Darwin' phrases.
If you don't conform you are excluded from cycling within certain groups and gatherings, rides.
if you don't conform you are called all sorts of insulting names.

Then you have the current experience of daily physical fear of harm by criminals, mostly ignored by those who swore to uphold the law but they do basically nothing. Hate and abuse is displayed daily by the general public and in the media, via radio, television, social media and print, virtually none of it removed or addressed such that the hatred and vitriol gathers pace.

Deaths and injuries within the 'outgroup' happen as a result of the hate and lack of protection by those who should be doing so.
more blame on the victims, including persecution, unlawful and discriminatory action by police and judges which again leads to more deaths and injuries and more persecution due to next to zero deterrent.

Are people on bikes being exterminated, well actually yes, needlessly and by criminals for the most part, the authorities are dong nothing, they are complicit in the deaths by their inaction and continued avenue of telling everyone that the outgroup must conform or whatever happens is your fault, despite the fact by conforming this has actually made matters worse not better :twisted:


I agree - it was a suitable analogy despite the scale of the harms being much lower for the cyclists. The point about such analogies is to show that exactly the same attitudes and consequent behaviours underlie the issue being discussed as underlay another issue that escalated to a horrendous degree in the past.

But those who don't wish to see their behaviour as being similar, related-to or near-identical to the behaviour of past monsters of history will obviously object. "I would never go that far". Of course, they would (some individuals already do) if society at large gave them permission. We may be on the cusp of such permissions being given for all sorts of nasty persecutions, though - some of them almost identical to those of the past. Anti-semitism and similar attitudes are very much on the rise just now, for example. Windrush was ethnic cleansing in disguise, as is much of current and proposed immigration policy.

Cyclists aren't persecuted Jews....? Not yet - but the harbingers are there.Cyclists may never morph into full persecution-fodder but they might. It's not that hard, in the present state of socio-political turmoil, to imagine a motorised mob going out to hunt down and run over cyclists as some sort of sport-come-"social justice", a la Kristallnacht, with the authorities looking on or performing inaction with tacit agreement for the persecution. "They should keep to their cyclepath ghettos and wear their yellow stars, er, vests".

Cugel


Back in the 70’s there was a play on Niemoller. I cannot remember it, but it started

First they came for the cyclists and then using other groups like caravan nets, delivery lorries, elderly drivers removed everything from the roads