Why wear black?

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mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 12 Jan 2020, 6:12pm

Cugel wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

Why is the analogy outrageous I wonder?


I agree - it was a suitable analogy despite the scale of the harms being much lower for the cyclists. The point about such analogies is to show that exactly the same attitudes and consequent behaviours underlie the issue being discussed as underlay another issue that escalated to a horrendous degree in the past.



Thankyou sirs!

I don't see that an analogy is flawed simply because the scales are different - the principle can very much be the same. And I did state the scale problem quite clearly!

If The Mods - or anyone else - can suggest an "acceptable" analogy, do please let me know! Kthxbai :)

mmcnay
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mmcnay » 12 Jan 2020, 8:12pm

mattheus wrote:
Cugel wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:Last edited by Graham on 11 Jan 2020, 10:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Analogy outrageous

Why is the analogy outrageous I wonder?


I agree - it was a suitable analogy despite the scale of the harms being much lower for the cyclists. The point about such analogies is to show that exactly the same attitudes and consequent behaviours underlie the issue being discussed as underlay another issue that escalated to a horrendous degree in the past.



Thankyou sirs!

I don't see that an analogy is flawed simply because the scales are different - the principle can very much be the same. And I did state the scale problem quite clearly!

If The Mods - or anyone else - can suggest an "acceptable" analogy, do please let me know! Kthxbai :)


The analogy was deeply flawed and offensive. Cyclists don't get their homes smashed up, or walled up in ghettoes, forced into extermination campes, or their children murdered.

Shame on you for trying to use the murder of millions of innocents to prop up your argument.

Occasionally cyclists are knocked over, often accidentally - they aren't systematically murdered, or even abused. (Your analogy falls here)

But, unlike the Aryans who abused Jews, most drivers are, or were, cyclists. (Your analogy falls here.)

And, before you start frothing and accusing me. I am a cyclist who has come across bad driving, who has had 'words' with the odd driver. I know what cyclists are up against. The odd idiot who is a bit careless and doesn't realise how dangerous his car is. It is nothing like antisemitism, or racism. Don't ever think it is.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby The utility cyclist » 12 Jan 2020, 9:16pm

mmcnay wrote:
mattheus wrote:
Cugel wrote:
I agree - it was a suitable analogy despite the scale of the harms being much lower for the cyclists. The point about such analogies is to show that exactly the same attitudes and consequent behaviours underlie the issue being discussed as underlay another issue that escalated to a horrendous degree in the past.



Thankyou sirs!

I don't see that an analogy is flawed simply because the scales are different - the principle can very much be the same. And I did state the scale problem quite clearly!

If The Mods - or anyone else - can suggest an "acceptable" analogy, do please let me know! Kthxbai :)


The analogy was deeply flawed and offensive. Cyclists don't get their homes smashed up, or walled up in ghettoes, forced into extermination campes, or their children murdered.

Shame on you for trying to use the murder of millions of innocents to prop up your argument.

Occasionally cyclists are knocked over, often accidentally - they aren't systematically murdered, or even abused. (Your analogy falls here)

But, unlike the Aryans who abused Jews, most drivers are, or were, cyclists. (Your analogy falls here.)

And, before you start frothing and accusing me. I am a cyclist who has come across bad driving, who has had 'words' with the odd driver. I know what cyclists are up against. The odd idiot who is a bit careless and doesn't realise how dangerous his car is. It is nothing like antisemitism, or racism. Don't ever think it is.


It's offensive to you, it certainly isn't to me and clearly a few others.
But ok, shall we go with the, when women were violently raped and then blamed by police for walking down the 'wrong' streets at the 'wrong' time, wearing the 'wrong' clothing and joe public piled in with the same thinking calling out the women who were raped and saying it was Darwinism and they were just asking to be raped, shall we go with that analogy because that's rather more accurate to the helmet and hi-vis plus riding on the wrong roads situation.
It was disgusting when that occurred and it's still disgusting but still goes on, a prime case is the young lady who was gang raped and the misogynist system in the country where the sickening act occurred has blamed her and even held her in prison.
Similar to when a cyclist gets harmed, fights back and then is slammed by police with threats of public order/assault and states that they will do the cyclist if they are to also charge the criminal who attacked the vulnerable person.

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Cugel
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cugel » 13 Jan 2020, 9:38am

mmcnay wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
mmcnay wrote:
The analogy was deeply flawed and offensive. Cyclists don't get their homes smashed up, or walled up in ghettoes, forced into extermination campes, or their children murdered.

Shame on you for trying to use the murder of millions of innocents to prop up your argument.

Occasionally cyclists are knocked over, often accidentally - they aren't systematically murdered, or even abused. (Your analogy falls here)

But, unlike the Aryans who abused Jews, most drivers are, or were, cyclists. (Your analogy falls here.)

And, before you start frothing and accusing me. I am a cyclist who has come across bad driving, who has had 'words' with the odd driver. I know what cyclists are up against. The odd idiot who is a bit careless and doesn't realise how dangerous his car is. It is nothing like antisemitism, or racism. Don't ever think it is.


It's offensive to you, it certainly isn't to me and clearly a few others.
But ok, shall we go with the, when women were violently raped and then blamed by police for walking down the 'wrong' streets at the 'wrong' time, wearing the 'wrong' clothing and joe public piled in with the same thinking calling out the women who were raped and saying it was Darwinism and they were just asking to be raped, shall we go with that analogy because that's rather more accurate to the helmet and hi-vis plus riding on the wrong roads situation.
It was disgusting when that occurred and it's still disgusting but still goes on, a prime case is the young lady who was gang raped and the misogynist system in the country where the sickening act occurred has blamed her and even held her in prison.
Similar to when a cyclist gets harmed, fights back and then is slammed by police with threats of public order/assault and states that they will do the cyclist if they are to also charge the criminal who attacked the vulnerable person.


[removed by moderator]


The arguments and analogies found sometimes prove to be basically sound. It's always best, in the end, to address the argument rather than the nature of the arguer - assuming the nature of the arguer doesn't reveal another motive for making a proposition other than that claimed by the arguer.

You have failed to notice, in considering the analogy under question, M's point about scale. The crimes perpetrated against jews during the holocaust were obviously far, far worse than those perpetrated against cyclists. But the crimes of the holocaust began, In Germany and elsewhere, with a less harsh persecution of the jews, who were first "merely" vilified in various mass media, treated with disrespect in the street, occasionally beaten up, discriminated against in various ways and generally made 3rd class citizens.

Currently we cyclists are often treated in that low-key-persecution way, with occasional high-persecution events in the form of motorists deliberately running into cyclists, sometimes with intent to seriously harm or kill them. These persecutions are performed "because it's a cyclist and they deserve it".

The attitude and associated persecution behaviours are getting worse. They are encouraged actively by large sections of the mass media. The authorities don't treat deliberate cyclist-harming as a serious crime except in the most extreme cases.

****
The rape analogy is perhaps easier to accept as rapists always intend serious harm and the failure of the authorities to deal with it via the legal system represents a very serious reduction in the civil status of women, as well as an invitation to rapists everywhere to do their nasty thing. But the underlying attitudes and behaviours in all three kinds of crime (racism, cyclist-harming and rape) are the same. "Other" the victims. Perform a persecution. Blame the victim for inducing the persecutor to persecute.

Cugel

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mjr
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mjr » 13 Jan 2020, 10:10am

Cugel wrote:The rape analogy is perhaps easier to accept as rapists always intend serious harm and the failure of the authorities to deal with it via the legal system represents a very serious reduction in the civil status of women, as well as an invitation to rapists everywhere to do their nasty thing. But the underlying attitudes and behaviours in all three kinds of crime (racism, cyclist-harming and rape) are the same. "Other" the victims. Perform a persecution. Blame the victim for inducing the persecutor to persecute.

I feel that's still too sensitive and generally linked to no choice of the victim, whereas cycling is a choice, although an officially-encouraged one which we need more of to unbung our towns and hospitals.

Maybe knife crime is a better analogy to motor crimes? Government and police don't tackle that by handing out stab vests to the public, or at least get roundly criticised by the press when they do. Can you imagine if we had annual stab-vest-wearing campaigns going into primary schools?

I agree there is some similarity in perp-defence tactics and drawing similarities between yellow jackets and jackets with yellow stars on is attractive, but it lets the motoring friends complain about inappropriateness and divert the discussion too much IMO, away from the inappropriateness of requiring the victims to wear special stuff which is unproven and surely can never overcome over 1 in 5 drivers having eyesight too poor to drive. Anyone who wants to reduce "failed to see" collisions absolutely must push for driver retesting and eyetesting, else they're just enablers.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 13 Jan 2020, 12:17pm

Gosh, I hadn't expected my post to mushroom in this way! It's quite interesting that by Moderating my analogy and thus striking it from the record, a space has been left wherein anyone can guess at my text;
- they can leap to offence at what they imagined was written,
- they can divert the topic to suit their own ends, using the imagined words (and meaning) as a springboard,
- they can debate whether the Moderators _should_ remove all references to dipping kittens in purple paint.

I think too much smoke and noise has resulted for me to easily clarify the point I was *actually* making; this is a shame, but probably won't result in many cyclist deaths. I am a little disappointed that my post seems to be too subtle for some, even though I didn't think it was a very complex point that I was making. Never mind ...

p.s. Long Live the Mods! Even when I disagree with them ...

mattsccm
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattsccm » 13 Jan 2020, 9:16pm

My mum would bang some heads together here. What a miserable bunch. It's like the Roadcc forum. People should be ashamed of themselves for personal attacks, taking things out of context, total irrelevancies and worst of all outrageous thread drift. Grow up and go for a bike ride!

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mjr
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mjr » 14 Jan 2020, 9:50am

mattsccm wrote:My mum would bang some heads together here. What a miserable bunch. It's like the Roadcc forum. People should be ashamed of themselves for personal attacks, taking things out of context, total irrelevancies and worst of all outrageous thread drift. Grow up and go for a bike ride!

10/10 for irony, criticising various posters for criticising each other and grumbling about thread drift while posting nothing on-topic.

0/10 on following your own advice!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 14 Jan 2020, 9:54am

Thread drift is just like how conversations ramble in the real world. I don't think there is too much wrong with it. Posters can always bring the conversation back to the topic it began with.
The fractiousness and even abuse is less like the real world. People seem to be more polite face to face.

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 14 Jan 2020, 10:15am

mjr wrote:
mattsccm wrote:My mum would bang some heads together here. What a miserable bunch. It's like the Roadcc forum. People should be ashamed of themselves for personal attacks, taking things out of context, total irrelevancies and worst of all outrageous thread drift. Grow up and go for a bike ride!

10/10 for irony, criticising various posters for criticising each other and grumbling about thread drift while posting nothing on-topic.

0/10 on following your own advice!

I used the forum search - the first 3 posts it returned (on this Topic) are absolutely bang on-topic.

And even if matt IS being either ironic or hypocritical, I 100% agree with him :)

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 14 Jan 2020, 10:44am

Mike Sales wrote:Thread drift is just like how conversations ramble in the real world. I don't think there is too much wrong with it. Posters can always bring the conversation back to the topic it began with.


So why do we have Topics?

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 14 Jan 2020, 10:45am

mattheus wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:Thread drift is just like how conversations ramble in the real world. I don't think there is too much wrong with it. Posters can always bring the conversation back to the topic it began with.


So why do we have Topics?


To get a nice chat started?

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 14 Jan 2020, 10:47am

Mike Sales wrote:To get a nice chat started?


Do you think this has been a "nice chat"?

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 14 Jan 2020, 10:59am

mattheus wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:To get a nice chat started?


Do you think this has been a "nice chat"?


At points, no. But much thread drift is good humoured and informative. Just because some people cannot express themselves in a civil manner is no reason to rigorously keep to one aspect of an idea. One thought sparks an interesting response in another and so a conversation flowers.

mattheus
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mattheus » 14 Jan 2020, 11:05am

I know I'm wasting my breath here - most of the Frequent Posters seem to like posting this way - but it is a flipping stupid way to run a forum!

[and yes, I know this is thread drift from the Main Topic i.e. why cyclists in black are organ-donors with great arteries]