Why wear black?

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 8 Feb 2020, 4:10pm

pedals2slowly wrote:It's a shame that sensible debate cannot be pursued on virtually all internet forums.
It goes to show that keyboard warriors have a strange perspective on life.
Time to unsubscribe to this topic methinks (again)


When a dissenting opinion, backed with evidence, is dismissed as not “sensible debate” then there is only one group who aren’t “debating sensibly”.

There is no reason *not* to wear whatever you choose, assuming it is legal. The legal requirements are based around normal decency.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

rfryer
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby rfryer » 8 Feb 2020, 4:15pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
rfryer wrote:Out of town, I see things differently. There have been a number of times when travelling on country A-roads at night that I've seen a remarkably conspicuous cyclist in the middle distance. "Remarkably" in the sense that I've remarked to my passenger about their presence. Due to bends in the road, etc, the cyclist has been temporarily hidden at various points until I eventually caught up and passed them, but the early warning meant that I was expecting them, and taking extra care with blind corners and dazzle from oncoming traffic.

That just sounds like you're driving based on what you know rather than what you don't know is on the road or around a bend ahead, that's not a particularly safe way to drive or cycle.

Focusing on the quality or otherwise of my driving is missing the point of my post. (And, believe it or not, I'm not about to stop driving, or dramatically change my driving style, based on what some guy on an internet forum infers from a brief anecdote).

The point is that I have first hand experience of a conspicuous cyclist getting extra consideration from a motorist (me), and believe that it should be a consideration when deciding how to present myself in similar road conditions.

Even if I took your post to heart and gave up driving forthwith, the point would be unchanged.

fastpedaller
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby fastpedaller » 8 Feb 2020, 5:13pm

But one observation (pun not intended) of RFRYERS' words is that he saw the cyclist appear and disappear around bends, and remembered the cyclist was there. I'm not sure that should be criticised, there are motorists out there who see someone in front and (presumably, having seen the way they continue to drive) forget the cyclist is in front once he's disappeared around a bend in the road. A lot of us have experienced the 'short memory' when a motorist overtakes us and then turns left!

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby The utility cyclist » 8 Feb 2020, 11:30pm

fastpedaller wrote:But one observation (pun not intended) of RFRYERS' words is that he saw the cyclist appear and disappear around bends, and remembered the cyclist was there. I'm not sure that should be criticised, there are motorists out there who see someone in front and (presumably, having seen the way they continue to drive) forget the cyclist is in front once he's disappeared around a bend in the road. A lot of us have experienced the 'short memory' when a motorist overtakes us and then turns left!

Making a presumption on where something or someone is based on the last thing they saw is dangerous driving, what if they had fallen off from the last sighting, that's right, made a presumption that they were still travelling along and crashed right into them. it's the expectation of x being lit or having some reflectivity and not allowing oneself enough time to stop in the distance you can see to be clear that is one of the major problems that face cyclists due to drivers inability to grasp that not everything is going to have a day-glo sign above it pointing out the vulnerable user, and nor should it for the reasons I and others have mentioned previously.
people on bikes also fail to observe this far too often, especially sports cyclists, that's why they crash a lot and/or have near misses more than most.

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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Vorpal » 9 Feb 2020, 1:15pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:But one observation (pun not intended) of RFRYERS' words ...

Making a presumption on where something or someone is based on the last thing they saw is dangerous driving, what if they had fallen off from the last sighting, that's right, made a presumption that they were still travelling along and crashed right into them. it's the expectation of x being lit or having some reflectivity and not allowing oneself enough time to stop in the distance you can see to be clear that is one of the major problems that face cyclists due to drivers inability to grasp that not everything is going to have a day-glo sign above it pointing out the vulnerable user, and nor should it for the reasons I and others have mentioned previously.
people on bikes also fail to observe this far too often, especially sports cyclists, that's why they crash a lot and/or have near misses more than most.

It does not sound at all like rfryer made assumptions about where someone was, only that he took extra care having seen a cyclist ahead.
rfryer wrote: Due to bends in the road, etc, the cyclist has been temporarily hidden at various points until I eventually caught up and passed them, but the early warning meant that I was expecting them, and taking extra care with blind corners and dazzle from oncoming traffic. Did this make any difference to the cyclist? Probably not, I'm generally a pretty careful driver anyway, and don't make a habit of careering round corners into the unknown. But my reaction to the cyclist did make me especially careful, and persuades me that being conspicuous in those conditions has value.


I don't see any argument that he was assuming he knew where the cyclist was, other than (probably) ahead of him. Nor that he was driving too fast to stop in the distance that he could see to be clear. Nor that he expects cyclists to wear hi viz. Only that it has some value.

I can possibly see an argument that he should be *that* careful all the time because there might be a cyclist ahead who isn't wearing hi viz.

But that still isn't an assumption about where anyone was, or whether they should wear it.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Feb 2020, 2:15pm

Vorpal wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:But one observation (pun not intended) of RFRYERS' words ...

Making a presumption on where something or someone is based on the last thing they saw is dangerous driving, what if they had fallen off from the last sighting, that's right, made a presumption that they were still travelling along and crashed right into them. it's the expectation of x being lit or having some reflectivity and not allowing oneself enough time to stop in the distance you can see to be clear that is one of the major problems that face cyclists due to drivers inability to grasp that not everything is going to have a day-glo sign above it pointing out the vulnerable user, and nor should it for the reasons I and others have mentioned previously.
people on bikes also fail to observe this far too often, especially sports cyclists, that's why they crash a lot and/or have near misses more than most.

It does not sound at all like rfryer made assumptions about where someone was, only that he took extra care having seen a cyclist ahead.
rfryer wrote: Due to bends in the road, etc, the cyclist has been temporarily hidden at various points until I eventually caught up and passed them, but the early warning meant that I was expecting them, and taking extra care with blind corners and dazzle from oncoming traffic. Did this make any difference to the cyclist? Probably not, I'm generally a pretty careful driver anyway, and don't make a habit of careering round corners into the unknown. But my reaction to the cyclist did make me especially careful, and persuades me that being conspicuous in those conditions has value.


I don't see any argument that he was assuming he knew where the cyclist was, other than (probably) ahead of him. Nor that he was driving too fast to stop in the distance that he could see to be clear. Nor that he expects cyclists to wear hi viz. Only that it has some value.

I can possibly see an argument that he should be *that* careful all the time because there might be a cyclist ahead who isn't wearing hi viz.

But that still isn't an assumption about where anyone was, or whether they should wear it.

Focusing on the person well ahead with hi-vis and not so on the ground nearer to you and filling in gaps that you can't see between happens all the time, hi-vis can and does distract, it leads people's focus elsewhere instead of the nearer vicinity, we have had admittances of this on this very forum. Whilst I never directly accused the poster of anything = I'm talking about the whole aspect of how people get about on the roads and mentioned people on bikes too, their focus was factually to the cyclist ahead that they saw, they would have been looking out for them ahead - a distraction to the space between, this is dangerous either in a motorvehicle or on a bike.

To deny that people are distracted when it comes to looking further ahead to reflectives/conspicuancy garments does not tally up with the reality, and we know that drivers and cyclists rarely travel with regards to HC126 during day time or night time and that hi-vis does not aid in protecting from that.

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gaz
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby gaz » 9 Feb 2020, 4:46pm

Forensic investigator PC Robin Youngs added David Cox’s dark clothes could have made him “more detectable” against the sunlight.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/herne-bay/ ... ht-199286/
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

mikeymo
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby mikeymo » 9 Feb 2020, 5:37pm

The utility cyclist wrote:To deny that people are distracted when it comes to looking further ahead to reflectives/conspicuancy garments does not tally up with the reality, and we know that drivers and cyclists rarely travel with regards to HC126 during day time or night time and that hi-vis does not aid in protecting from that.


Or horse riders. Do horses have ABS fitted as standard? Or is it a factory option?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158

(you can guess I had to google what HC126 is)

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 9 Feb 2020, 5:59pm

Horses have ABS as standard.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Mike Sales
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Feb 2020, 6:01pm

mikeymo wrote:
(you can guess I had to google what HC126 is)


I fear that very few drivers have any idea what it says.

rmurphy195
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby rmurphy195 » 9 Feb 2020, 6:35pm

Why wear black - to reduce the chances of being picked up in peoples peripheral vision perhaps?
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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Feb 2020, 7:42pm

rmurphy195 wrote:Why wear black - to reduce the chances of being picked up in peoples peripheral vision perhaps?


One would hope that in the previous kilometre you would have been picked up in their central vision.

If you are being picked up by peripheral vision it is far too late and the driver has been extremely careless in their driving

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Cunobelin » 9 Feb 2020, 8:03pm

fastpedaller wrote:But one observation (pun not intended) of RFRYERS' words is that he saw the cyclist appear and disappear around bends, and remembered the cyclist was there. I'm not sure that should be criticised, there are motorists out there who see someone in front and (presumably, having seen the way they continue to drive) forget the cyclist is in front once he's disappeared around a bend in the road. A lot of us have experienced the 'short memory' when a motorist overtakes us and then turns left!


I agree partially...

One of the big issues though is the driver's appropriate response.

The biggest excuse for pulling out of junctions is misinterpreting the cyclist's speed.

Yes -being aware the cyclist is there is good, but they could speed up, slow down, stop and that alters the expectations. Memory is the last thing to rely upon

rfryer
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Re: Why wear black?

Postby rfryer » 9 Feb 2020, 9:52pm

Cunobelin wrote:The biggest excuse for pulling out of junctions is misinterpreting the cyclist's speed.

I thought the biggest excuse was SMIDSY, and it's that which increasing conspicuity stands some, small hope of addressing.

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Re: Why wear black?

Postby Mike Sales » 9 Feb 2020, 9:55pm

rfryer wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:The biggest excuse for pulling out of junctions is misinterpreting the cyclist's speed.

I thought the biggest excuse was SMIDSY, and it's that which increasing conspicuity stands some, small hope of addressing.


An excuse is just that, a story which seeks to divert blame. The reason may well be different.