BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Syd
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by Syd »

After coming off on black ice a few years ago I simply don’t chance it anymore. I’ve had two staff members come off on ice already this winter.
dim
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by dim »

Syd wrote:After coming off on black ice a few years ago I simply don’t chance it anymore. I’ve had two staff members come off on ice already this winter.



I cycle 7 days a week the whole year, and I leave home for my 1st job before 5am

you never know when there's black ice, as you don't see it

I've been lucky and have not crashed or fallen yet, but some of the people who I follow on Strava and who live close to me were not so lucky
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
dim wrote:
Syd wrote:After coming off on black ice a few years ago I simply don’t chance it anymore. I’ve had two staff members come off on ice already this winter.



I cycle 7 days a week the whole year, and I leave home for my 1st job before 5am

you never know when there's black ice, as you don't see it

I've been lucky and have not crashed or fallen yet, but some of the people who I follow on Strava and who live close to me were not so lucky

From my experience its more luck than experience and old age from over 50 years on two wheels.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

recumbentpanda wrote:Recumbent. You still fall off, but you don’t have nearly so far to fall! :lol:

A year or two ago, I hit black ice on a double bend and went down. Got up and carried on without even superficial injury to self or bike. Worried at the slightest quiver of the bike for the next ten miles. Passed the same spot on the way back to see a small pile of cyclists huddled under a Mylar blanket by the side of the road while an ambulance man wheeled his gurney very cautiously towards them! Passed by at ‘dead slow’ with feet down, but no problem.



Better still - recumbent trike.

Unlikely even to fall (unless you manage to spin entirely sideways before you meet tarmac again).

Just beware of following traffic assuming grip levels that aren't there. I used to put studded tyres all round when the weather was bad enough to expect ice on my rural commute. Yes it slowed me down a bit, but I still got to work faster than I would have done if I'd crashed out (or, probably, taken a car)
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mig
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by mig »

Vorpal wrote:If you're trying to ride on sheet ice, studded tyres are the only way. However, if there is a risk of ice on part of route, some frosty patches that may not have cleared yet, etc., there are other alternatives.
1) Conti GP 4 Seasons, which grip well in winter conditions where other road tyres slip, like frost, leaves, etc. They are made with a compound that performs well in cold temperatures. However, they really don't give much more than an extra moments chance on ice.
2) Top Contact II, non-studded winter tyres increase the chances of staying upright when hitting an unexpected patch of ice, good in all around winter conditions, but still roll pretty well. Edited: they come in 28 mm wide, which fits some road bikes. The bigger sizes run small. (37 wide is more like 32 or 33). I'm not sure about the 28s.


have never seen these in 28c. might sniff some out for a certain frame i have in mind.

yes the 37s run small but they are good to have in january in the UK.
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by Vorpal »

mig wrote:
Vorpal wrote:If you're trying to ride on sheet ice, studded tyres are the only way. However, if there is a risk of ice on part of route, some frosty patches that may not have cleared yet, etc., there are other alternatives.
1) Conti GP 4 Seasons, which grip well in winter conditions where other road tyres slip, like frost, leaves, etc. They are made with a compound that performs well in cold temperatures. However, they really don't give much more than an extra moments chance on ice.
2) Top Contact II, non-studded winter tyres increase the chances of staying upright when hitting an unexpected patch of ice, good in all around winter conditions, but still roll pretty well. Edited: they come in 28 mm wide, which fits some road bikes. The bigger sizes run small. (37 wide is more like 32 or 33). I'm not sure about the 28s.


have never seen these in 28c. might sniff some out for a certain frame i have in mind.

yes the 37s run small but they are good to have in january in the UK.
Yeah, that was corrected in previous posts. I'll fix the original. :oops:
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mattheus
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by mattheus »

pwa wrote:Spiked tyres - never used them myself and I'm not sure you can get them to fit a road race bike

studs/spikes are the best answer by far. Perhaps you need one of these? viewtopic.php?f=5&t=134988


Stick to gritted roads - my favoured option
Stay off bike on frosty mornings - if your cycling is recreational


Wise words. I commuted this morning (at about -0.5C), and led a recreational ride yesterday - at a rather chilly 0930. Both rides were on a combination of gritted roads and roads/tracks that I know very well.

I am super-cautious around ice - fallen off 3 times (iirc). Just grazes, except one that was 5 hours from the end of an Audax, which turned into a grim battle with a hip that wanted to seize up. Bleah. I do everything possible to mitigate the risk (which may include not riding).
Many folks say that you just need to "stop and walk if you see some black ice" - IMO this is baloney. I've either not seen the ice, or noticed it a second before impact.

I've also had a life-threatening car-crash on ice, so I'm well aware of the dangers out there.

Saturday seemed to catch a lot of people out :(. Not just in the Chilterns (I had brunch in the foothills!), but all over England it seems. Perhaps the very mild winter to date has made us complacent, dunno ...
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by mjr »

Foghat wrote:As a comparison of how slow such tyres can be, I found from years of doing the same commute non-e-assisted on the various tyres that for the 20-mile each-way commute, the tyres would add the following time to 32mm Gatorskin-type tyres (assuming no adjustments for presence of wind affecting commute duration - i.e. take these as the zero-wind figures using non-e-bike):

32mm Top Contact II Winter Premium non-studded - adds 8-10 mins each way
30mm Schwalbe Winter studded - adds 18-20 mins each way

Would you mind saying how long the commute took you on the 32mm Gatorskin-type, to put that in context, please?
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by mjr »

mattheus wrote:Many folks say that you just need to "stop and walk if you see some black ice" - IMO this is baloney. I've either not seen the ice, or noticed it a second before impact.

I agree. Usually, the first thing I've known about it is the sound changing from the very faint crinkle of rubber on tarmac or noisier crunchy frost to the silence of rubber on ice. Even on spiky tyres, it goes from the "frying bacon" noise on clear tarmac to a sound a bit like faint tapping.

mattheus wrote:I've also had a life-threatening car-crash on ice, so I'm well aware of the dangers out there.

A sobering thought. I've lost control of a car on ice but it was minor. Anyone thinking that a car is a safe option on back roads in icy conditions is seriously underestimating the risks IMO.

Also, the last ice crash I had was early on a Sunday morning on a gritted road. When it's a deep freeze, you cannot even trust gritted roads without spikes.

mattheus wrote:Saturday seemed to catch a lot of people out :(. Not just in the Chilterns (I had brunch in the foothills!), but all over England it seems. Perhaps the very mild winter to date has made us complacent, dunno ...

Bizarrely, we were actually OK in Norfolk on Saturday, possibly thanks to the (cold!) sea breeze. Sunday was a different story with frozen fields even in mid-afternoon. Plenty of crashed motorists to be seen.
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Mike Sales
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by Mike Sales »

mattheus wrote:Many folks say that you just need to "stop and walk if you see some black ice" - IMO this is baloney. I've either not seen the ice, or noticed it a second before impact.



I was riding along happily when the tarmac surface changed from moderately rough to a nice smooth patched section.
Bang. My wheels went from under me with that horrible suddenness.
I guess that the rugosities had been poking through to give enough grip, but the new section was too smooth.
The black ice was not visible at all.
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by reohn2 »

mattheus wrote:......Many folks say that you just need to "stop and walk if you see some black ice" - IMO this is baloney. I've either not seen the ice, or noticed it a second before impact.


Quite!
The two times I've fell on black I didn't see or hear anything,one second upright the next down with a painful thud :?

The most worrying thing being if anything is behind me who hits the brakes,car or other cyclist(s) and then in turn hits me :shock:
Of course there are those who think this scenario to be an impossible occurrence,I beg to differ an don't wish to tempt providence so don't ride on tarmac when the temp drops below 5C.
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by Vorpal »

reohn2 wrote:
mattheus wrote:......Many folks say that you just need to "stop and walk if you see some black ice" - IMO this is baloney. I've either not seen the ice, or noticed it a second before impact.


Quite!
The two times I've fell on black I didn't see or hear anything,one second upright the next down with a painful thud :?

I've recounted a couple of times on here when I came off on completely invisible black ice...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=127558&hilit=black+trailer&start=45#p1324114
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The thing about "black" ice is that it is basically perfectly clear...
So you don't see it, you hear it.

As for taking a car - you personally will be in less danger, because you are encased in armour...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
pwa
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by pwa »

[XAP]Bob wrote:The thing about "black" ice is that it is basically perfectly clear...
So you don't see it, you hear it.

As for taking a car - you personally will be in less danger, because you are encased in armour...

You also have the advantage of not falling off. A sliding car normally stays the right way up. Not always, but usually. And that sometimes allows you to regain control. With a bike it is just bang, you're down.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: BLACK ICE & How to stay safe road riding in winter.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

pwa wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:The thing about "black" ice is that it is basically perfectly clear...
So you don't see it, you hear it.

As for taking a car - you personally will be in less danger, because you are encased in armour...

You also have the advantage of not falling off. A sliding car normally stays the right way up. Not always, but usually. And that sometimes allows you to regain control. With a bike it is just bang, you're down.


Yep - same advantage with a ('bent) trike (my guess is that an upright trike has the same advantage, but for less severity of slide)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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