Covid 19 and Spitting

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peetee
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby peetee » 29 Mar 2020, 8:11pm

RickH wrote:
peetee wrote:A living room bin by an open door or window would be inadvisable, surely?

Why do you think that?

Are you worried the tissues might get blown away by a gust of wind & contaminate someone? Viruses aren't going to be suddenly jumping out of the window to make their escape! :wink:


It was a general comment about open bins which are in many other locations too. If virus’ can be transmitted by breathing they can be transmitted by air currents too. You might as well leave the tissue on the sofa/work surface/desk etc as put it on top of a pile of rubbish in an open bin.
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RickH
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby RickH » 29 Mar 2020, 10:05pm

peetee wrote:
RickH wrote:
peetee wrote:A living room bin by an open door or window would be inadvisable, surely?

Why do you think that?

Are you worried the tissues might get blown away by a gust of wind & contaminate someone? Viruses aren't going to be suddenly jumping out of the window to make their escape! :wink:


It was a general comment about open bins which are in many other locations too. If virus’ can be transmitted by breathing they can be transmitted by air currents too. You might as well leave the tissue on the sofa/work surface/desk etc as put it on top of a pile of rubbish in an open bin.

I'm not an expert but I think a tissue is of little (negligible?) risk unless you touch it & then touch your face. Viruses won't leap off the tissue into the air.

peetee
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby peetee » 29 Mar 2020, 10:23pm

RickH wrote:I'm not an expert but I think a tissue is of little (negligible?) risk unless you touch it & then touch your face. Viruses won't leap off the tissue into the air.


You seem to base your assumptions on their lack of self-propel-ability. Well, I know they don’t have legs like a flea but get into the air they do and I can’t say I am any the wiser as to all the ways that can happen. Nevertheless, containment is a recurring byword in all this and a lidded bin is a container and an open one isn’t. And with that, I will say no more.
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kwackers
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby kwackers » 30 Mar 2020, 8:18am

peetee wrote:
RickH wrote:I'm not an expert but I think a tissue is of little (negligible?) risk unless you touch it & then touch your face. Viruses won't leap off the tissue into the air.


You seem to base your assumptions on their lack of self-propel-ability. Well, I know they don’t have legs like a flea but get into the air they do and I can’t say I am any the wiser as to all the ways that can happen. Nevertheless, containment is a recurring byword in all this and a lidded bin is a container and an open one isn’t. And with that, I will say no more.

You need quite a lot of the virus to become ill.
Fortunately your body has many layers of protection to any virus even one that it's never seen before.
IIRC it's in the thousands / possibly tens of thousands before your initial systems are compromised.

Combine that with the diluting affects of the air which increase with the cube of the distance and you pretty much need to be coughed on to stand too much of a chance.
When the dust clears I suspect handling contaminated stuff will have turned out to be the main way the bug travelled although obviously being stuck in a smallish enclosed space doesn't bode well either.

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Cugel
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cugel » 30 Mar 2020, 9:35am

Does anyone have accurate and specific data, obtained via experimentation and all the other usual scientific modes, that describes the minutiae of how this virus may transmit? Has anyone collated enough experiential data? I doubt it, so the speculation here is mostly wild guessing, eh?

Well, we humans will do that. But some of the guesses seem to stray over the Boolean border into to the set "scaremonger" whilst others head for the "blase" set. Scaremongers will be scaring others besides themselves by speculating in places like this. The blase .....? Impossible to judge if they're doing significant damage in the way of encouraging virus spread or not, innit?

In reality, it seems difficult to know exactly what behaviours, proximate distances to others in various circumstances and modes of touch-transmission are operating at what levels to pass the virus. There's really only: "Viruses of this kind normally transmit something like this (we guess in an educated fashion) but it will vary greatly with the person and the circumstances".

Government rules (such as they are) seem to be going slowly into "rules for worst case scenarios". That would be OK if there weren't all those vast unintended consequences, from dying alone at home of something else, unvisited .... to policemen getting Statsi with perfectly safe behaviours. Not to mention the practical issues of food distribution and other infrastructure services slowly being reduced by an increasing demand for "lockdown" - whilst effectively causing more social mixing as people go a-hunting-oh for unnecessary 100-packs of toilet rolls.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cunobelin » 30 Mar 2020, 10:11am

Cugel wrote:Does anyone have accurate and specific data, obtained via experimentation and all the other usual scientific modes, that describes the minutiae of how this virus may transmit? Has anyone collated enough experiential data? I doubt it, so the speculation here is mostly wild guessing, eh?

Well, we humans will do that. But some of the guesses seem to stray over the Boolean border into to the set "scaremonger" whilst others head for the "blase" set. Scaremongers will be scaring others besides themselves by speculating in places like this. The blase .....? Impossible to judge if they're doing significant damage in the way of encouraging virus spread or not, innit?

In reality, it seems difficult to know exactly what behaviours, proximate distances to others in various circumstances and modes of touch-transmission are operating at what levels to pass the virus. There's really only: "Viruses of this kind normally transmit something like this (we guess in an educated fashion) but it will vary greatly with the person and the circumstances".

Government rules (such as they are) seem to be going slowly into "rules for worst case scenarios". That would be OK if there weren't all those vast unintended consequences, from dying alone at home of something else, unvisited .... to policemen getting Statsi with perfectly safe behaviours. Not to mention the practical issues of food distribution and other infrastructure services slowly being reduced by an increasing demand for "lockdown" - whilst effectively causing more social mixing as people go a-hunting-oh for unnecessary 100-packs of toilet rolls.

Cugel


It is a variant of a well known and well-researched group of viruses. (Shouldn't that be Virii?) That data is transferable to the current

With the perspective of this thread, there is a proven "load" of the virus in the nasopharynx and throat that will be transferred to sputum.

That is all that is needed to prove the irresponsibility of spitting

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Cugel
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cugel » 30 Mar 2020, 12:34pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Cugel wrote:Does anyone have accurate and specific data, obtained via experimentation and all the other usual scientific modes, that describes the minutiae of how this virus may transmit? Has anyone collated enough experiential data? I doubt it, so the speculation here is mostly wild guessing, eh?

Well, we humans will do that. But some of the guesses seem to stray over the Boolean border into to the set "scaremonger" whilst others head for the "blase" set. Scaremongers will be scaring others besides themselves by speculating in places like this. The blase .....? Impossible to judge if they're doing significant damage in the way of encouraging virus spread or not, innit?

In reality, it seems difficult to know exactly what behaviours, proximate distances to others in various circumstances and modes of touch-transmission are operating at what levels to pass the virus. There's really only: "Viruses of this kind normally transmit something like this (we guess in an educated fashion) but it will vary greatly with the person and the circumstances".

Government rules (such as they are) seem to be going slowly into "rules for worst case scenarios". That would be OK if there weren't all those vast unintended consequences, from dying alone at home of something else, unvisited .... to policemen getting Statsi with perfectly safe behaviours. Not to mention the practical issues of food distribution and other infrastructure services slowly being reduced by an increasing demand for "lockdown" - whilst effectively causing more social mixing as people go a-hunting-oh for unnecessary 100-packs of toilet rolls.

Cugel


It is a variant of a well known and well-researched group of viruses. (Shouldn't that be Virii?) That data is transferable to the current

With the perspective of this thread, there is a proven "load" of the virus in the nasopharynx and throat that will be transferred to sputum.

That is all that is needed to prove the irresponsibility of spitting


Iss, iss. But what about sneezing, coughing, dribbling, breathing, panting, sighing heavily and all the other modes whereby humans emit aerosols of tiny droplets capable of transmitting this virus? How far do they each project a viable virus that might enter another human? I suggest we don't really know with any real accuracy, as the circumstances vary so greatly.

Spitting is pretty rare in public (or at all) these days. The closest I ever see it is cyclists doing snot-rockets and rebel-yoofs trying to look hard. No one goes spit-sniffing either.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cunobelin » 30 Mar 2020, 1:00pm

Cugel wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cugel wrote:Does anyone have accurate and specific data, obtained via experimentation and all the other usual scientific modes, that describes the minutiae of how this virus may transmit? Has anyone collated enough experiential data? I doubt it, so the speculation here is mostly wild guessing, eh?

Well, we humans will do that. But some of the guesses seem to stray over the Boolean border into to the set "scaremonger" whilst others head for the "blase" set. Scaremongers will be scaring others besides themselves by speculating in places like this. The blase .....? Impossible to judge if they're doing significant damage in the way of encouraging virus spread or not, innit?

In reality, it seems difficult to know exactly what behaviours, proximate distances to others in various circumstances and modes of touch-transmission are operating at what levels to pass the virus. There's really only: "Viruses of this kind normally transmit something like this (we guess in an educated fashion) but it will vary greatly with the person and the circumstances".

Government rules (such as they are) seem to be going slowly into "rules for worst case scenarios". That would be OK if there weren't all those vast unintended consequences, from dying alone at home of something else, unvisited .... to policemen getting Statsi with perfectly safe behaviours. Not to mention the practical issues of food distribution and other infrastructure services slowly being reduced by an increasing demand for "lockdown" - whilst effectively causing more social mixing as people go a-hunting-oh for unnecessary 100-packs of toilet rolls.

Cugel


It is a variant of a well known and well-researched group of viruses. (Shouldn't that be Virii?) That data is transferable to the current

With the perspective of this thread, there is a proven "load" of the virus in the nasopharynx and throat that will be transferred to sputum.

That is all that is needed to prove the irresponsibility of spitting


Iss, iss. But what about sneezing, coughing, dribbling, breathing, panting, sighing heavily and all the other modes whereby humans emit aerosols of tiny droplets capable of transmitting this virus? How far do they each project a viable virus that might enter another human? I suggest we don't really know with any real accuracy, as the circumstances vary so greatly.

Spitting is pretty rare in public (or at all) these days. The closest I ever see it is cyclists doing snot-rockets and rebel-yoofs trying to look hard. No one goes spit-sniffing either.

Cugel


Sneezing openly onto a surface, or the floor is covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it

Coughing is openly onto a surface, or the floor - covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"

Dribbling is- covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"

Breathing, panting, sighing heavily - all covered by the Social Distancing.

Spitting Should be within "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"


Why should spitting be exempt?

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Cugel
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cugel » 30 Mar 2020, 1:30pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Sneezing openly onto a surface, or the floor is covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it

Coughing is openly onto a surface, or the floor - covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"

Dribbling is- covered by "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"

Breathing, panting, sighing heavily - all covered by the Social Distancing.

Spitting Should be within "Catch it, Bin it, Kill it"


Why should spitting be exempt?


"Catch it, bin it, kill it"? Good luck with catching a sneeze of a cough without overspill escaping. Mind, we should still try.

Who suggested spitting should be exempt?

Personally I'm more concerned that the rules attempting to control virus transmission are just far too simplistic, inappropriate in many circumstances and unworkable in others. It's easy for me in the sticks with a very low population density and a lifetime habit of "social distancing". How does anyone cope in a crowded city or town without locking themselves in a cupboard for the foreseeable future?

Cugel
Last edited by Cugel on 31 Mar 2020, 10:17am, edited 1 time in total.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Mar 2020, 1:47pm

Havnae had a cold or flu for a while, but I remember coughing up a lot of muck
I guess swallowing it to consign it to the mercies of digestive bacteria is ok

Not been sick for a while either, but that does have to come up, one can not swallow it
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rmurphy195
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby rmurphy195 » 30 Mar 2020, 8:53pm

No, it isn't acceptable at any time, Covid or not. And there's no need either, just for some people they think it makes them look good/tough or whatever.
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carlislemike
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby carlislemike » 30 Mar 2020, 10:37pm

I’m starting to get a righteous picture here: a small change of thought perhaps for you all! My dad contracted TB in his late teens and went into isolation. Came out after several months and was quite healthy until WW2. Volunteered straight away but essentially should have been rejected. Posted to Java and ended up in a Japanese POW camp. Serious malaria and recurrence of TB. 1945 repatriated and treated before returning to civilian life. Guess what he and a lot of his fellow survivors were instructed by medics and own GPs? If you havens handkerchief, spit in the gutter as it won’t harm anyone, no matter its being strange. As far as I know, no one caught TB as a result. Let’s not be so self righteous about spitting, as if it were a social norm from history of politeness.

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Cugel
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Cugel » 31 Mar 2020, 10:26am

carlislemike wrote:I’m starting to get a righteous picture here: a small change of thought perhaps for you all! My dad contracted TB in his late teens and went into isolation. Came out after several months and was quite healthy until WW2. Volunteered straight away but essentially should have been rejected. Posted to Java and ended up in a Japanese POW camp. Serious malaria and recurrence of TB. 1945 repatriated and treated before returning to civilian life. Guess what he and a lot of his fellow survivors were instructed by medics and own GPs? If you havens handkerchief, spit in the gutter as it won’t harm anyone, no matter its being strange. As far as I know, no one caught TB as a result. Let’s not be so self righteous about spitting, as if it were a social norm from history of politeness.


You have deprived dozens and dozens of the New Mrs Whitehouses of a great deal of pleasure with that observation! What will they turn to next? Kwackers has been overcome by events and now recommends reporting those caught smiling on a bike. Whilst I can only agree (no one is a real cyclist unless they are always a-grimace with pain) we could be seeing many eructations of judgemental bile from long-suppressed moralistic martinets.

Personally I agree with Bryn-Cyril that it's beyond the pale to allow people to sick-up any ejecta, physical or metaphysical, in the present circumstances so those New Mrs Whitehouses should just swallow their caws of disapproval. So there.

Cugel, trying and failing, hisself, to avoid The New Mrs Whitehouse mode.

Barks
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby Barks » 31 Mar 2020, 11:21am

Footballers on TV are the absolute worst - it appears to be the case they wait until a camera has them in close up before hacking up a gob full and ejecting the whole lot forcefully onto the pitch.

mikeymo
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Re: Covid 19 and Spitting

Postby mikeymo » 31 Mar 2020, 11:26am