Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

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TrevA
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby TrevA » 17 May 2020, 11:08am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
roberts8 wrote:I too despair about some idiot drivers, hence I love cycling in Europe. I did get my elbow clipped leaving Calais, shouted, then realised it was a GB car. No surprise there. I find cycling solo attracts less attention and keep to quiet lanes and the bar end mirror gives me some warning of possible close passes and a quick wiggle and they give more room, sometimes.


But why no surprise?
That is the question that intigues me.

What is/are the salient differences and causatives between the places.
Different insurance rules and liability law is mentioned up thread.
I am less covinviced.

I don't think we are necessarily less skilled as drivers overall either.
Our killed and seriously injured stats compare quite favourably across the whole spectrum.

This is a societal thing IMV.
A "get out of my way because you are weaker" mindset.
Instilled ( and installed!) by a Trumpian (and The Apprentice etc) type press and media.
Probably American influenced and possibly more pervasive in the no language barrier UK.
((This lack of language barrier does not apply to inarticulate Trump himself though. I have the greatest difficulty making any sense of all his utterances. :shock: ))


Isn’t it the law in France that you have to give 1.5 metres clearance when overtaking a bike? If it’s not law, then it is strongly encouraged. The last time I was in Bourg d’Oisans, there were signs all along the road to show that you should give 1.5 metres of space.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby al_yrpal » 17 May 2020, 11:32am

In France I think its 1 metre up to 30kph and 1.5 metres over 30kph. On my French tours there was never any problems with locals but GB plated motorhomes seemed to specialise in close passes.On tour there one is rewarded by many smiles and waves from the populace, long distance cyclists are often treated as heroes :D

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

Mike Sales
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Mike Sales » 17 May 2020, 11:38am

al_yrpal wrote:In France I think its 1 metre up to 30kph and 1.5 metres over 30kph. On my French tours there was never any problems with locals but GB plated motorhomes seemed to specialise in close passes.On tour there one is rewarded by many smiles and waves from the populace, long distance cyclists are often treated as heroes :D

Al


I found that the shouts in France were "Bonne route" and once "C'est dur, la" ("Non, c'est facile") and I soon realised that the hoots were not aggressive or derisive.
Last edited by Mike Sales on 17 May 2020, 11:58am, edited 1 time in total.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Cyril Haearn » 17 May 2020, 11:51am

Since 28 April 2020 German law requires a minimum clearance of 1.5 m in town and 2 m elsewhere
The cycles in the picture are equipped with 'Poolnudeln' floats (pipe insulation could be used instead), mortons should use the second lane, simples

images-8.jpeg
Poolnudel adfc
images-8.jpeg (8.63 KiB) Viewed 521 times
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 17 May 2020, 12:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 May 2020, 12:01pm

Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Our killed and seriously injured stats compare quite favourably across the whole spectrum.



Not the whole spectrum, I'm afraid.
For instance, we kill child pedestrians at a higher rate than most of Western Europe.

There are eleven western European countries with lower child pedestrian death rates than the UK, and five of these have rates less than half that of the UK


Yes, for clarification I meant overall and across all the groups the UK compares quite favourably.

It is clear to me that some vulnerable user are much more at risk here though.

The point was that we are not necessarily less "skilled".
The French distance rule, signage and cultural things are most likely significant factors there, simple awareness too.
But other places on the Continent kill less cyclists too.

reohn2
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby reohn2 » 17 May 2020, 12:09pm

The UK can have all the laws in place it wants but without the police force to enforce them they may as well not be there at all :?

EDIT:- it's the cats and mice syndrome.No cats plenty mice,plenty cats no mice.the UK lacks cats!
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Cyril Haearn » 17 May 2020, 12:42pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:..
Our killed and seriously injured stats compare quite favourably across the whole spectrum.
..

Disagree strongly, I think using 'favourably' is not appropriate. 'not quite so many are killed' or 'less worse' might be suitable terms

I am a bit sensitive about this, last year drivers killed two cyclists where I used to cycle to work, every day there are hairy situations there
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Mike Sales
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Mike Sales » 17 May 2020, 1:02pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Our killed and seriously injured stats compare quite favourably across the whole spectrum.



Not the whole spectrum, I'm afraid.
For instance, we kill child pedestrians at a higher rate than most of Western Europe.

There are eleven western European countries with lower child pedestrian death rates than the UK, and five of these have rates less than half that of the UK


Yes, for clarification I meant overall and across all the groups the UK compares quite favourably.

It is clear to me that some vulnerable user are much more at risk here though.

The point was that we are not necessarily less "skilled".
The French distance rule, signage and cultural things are most likely significant factors there, simple awareness too.
But other places on the Continent kill less cyclists too.


The overall flattering UK road user death rate comprises a low death rate for those within motor vehicles, but a higher than average (for W. Europe) death rate for pedestrians, cyclists and motor cyclists.
Per Km. ridden (which is what counts unless we want to drive down cyclist deaths by driving down cycling numbers) we have a poor record.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 May 2020, 6:12pm

Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Not the whole spectrum, I'm afraid.
For instance, we kill child pedestrians at a higher rate than most of Western Europe.



Yes, for clarification I meant overall and across all the groups the UK compares quite favourably.

It is clear to me that some vulnerable user are much more at risk here though.

The point was that we are not necessarily less "skilled".
The French distance rule, signage and cultural things are most likely significant factors there, simple awareness too.
But other places on the Continent kill less cyclists too.


The overall flattering UK road user death rate comprises a low death rate for those within motor vehicles, but a higher than average (for W. Europe) death rate for pedestrians, cyclists and motor cyclists.
Per Km. ridden (which is what counts unless we want to drive down cyclist deaths by driving down cycling numbers) we have a poor record.

Yes I understand and it is what I thought I said.
I am a motorized road user too so statistically safer in the UK than in S Italy for example.

However, in many areas on the Continent it us my impression that I get more consideration when on the bike.

There is in some sectors of society in the UK a blatant anti cyclist attitude.
It verges into a sort of mindless persecution.
As I said at the beginning, I think dreadful biased reporting by the DM and others had contributed to this state of affairs.
There is also a very strange feel about some parts of the UK, changed enormously since I was young.
A brash lack of politeness, and more.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 May 2020, 6:16pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:..
Our killed and seriously injured stats compare quite favourably across the whole spectrum.
..

Disagree strongly, I think using 'favourably' is not appropriate. 'not quite so many are killed' or 'less worse' might be suitable terms

I am a bit sensitive about this, last year drivers killed two cyclists where I used to cycle to work, every day there are hairy situations there

Favourable means quite simply we kill and injure less people overall on our roads than many Continental countries.
Probably Germany, certainly historically at least, and probably contemporarily, France, Italy, Switzerland.
( I am too busy to chase recent stats.)

Mike Sales
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Mike Sales » 17 May 2020, 6:27pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Yes I understand and it is what I thought I said.
I am a motorized road user too so statistically safer in the UK than in S Italy for example.
.


I am sure you will understand, that as a non-motorised road user, I rather resent that our much boasted "safer roads" are in reality only safer for the motorised, and rather less safe for the ones who do not add at all to the danger of using the roads.

I have become sensitised to the frequent claims of politicians and the road safety establishment, that we have the "safest roads in Europe."
They use this misconception to maintain that their present road standards, which make the roads so unpleasant for cycling, are working, and bring down deaths on the road.
These claims are apt to make me break out in a rage. It is as if road users like us do not really count.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 May 2020, 9:44pm

Mike Sales wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Yes I understand and it is what I thought I said.
I am a motorized road user too so statistically safer in the UK than in S Italy for example.
.


I am sure you will understand, that as a non-motorised road user, I rather resent that our much boasted "safer roads" are in reality only safer for the motorised, and rather less safe for the ones who do not add at all to the danger of using the roads.

I have become sensitised to the frequent claims of politicians and the road safety establishment, that we have the "safest roads in Europe."
They use this misconception to maintain that their present road standards, which make the roads so unpleasant for cycling, are working, and bring down deaths on the road.
These claims are apt to make me break out in a rage. It is as if road users like us do not really count.

Yes I do understand.

The original point I made was trying to balance what many experience (and state on here, hence my post) as better behaviour towards cyclists on the Continent.
Which exactly tallies with what you say.

I tried to balance that by saying that UK motoring accident statistics are overall not worse and in many cases better.

I am interested in the different behaviours and attitudes towards cyclists above all.
And the causation of that.
It seems fascinating that different "culture" can lead to such (perceived?) discrepancy.

That quintessential point is, to my mind, far more intriguing than simple arguing about which stats prove either this or that.

I gave what I see as plausible reasons, a permeating through society of " the strong win" mentality.
And a concerted and biased prejudice against cyclists in a section of the popular and widely read press.

I singled out DM because at a relatives house I once read an article so deeply biased and unfair that I developed an intense dislike of that particularly nasty publication.
All dressed up in nice cosy high moral tones.

Still no one has come up with anything better on here. Regional differences in the UK are a given as they are elsewhere.
But a deeply ingrained attitude to "have a go at cyclists" seems more of a UK trait than elsewhere in Europe.
That is my cycling experience.

I have read (and seen video of) horror stories on this forum about unprovoked assaults on cyclists.
It is what drives and lies behind such behaviour that interests me.

Django335
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Django335 » 22 May 2020, 8:55am

I have upmost sympathy. It is frustrating. And harrowing. I was involved in an incident very recently. I cannot be specific because it is in the hands of the police.
I am a motorist I own three cars. I am also a Cyclist, I have children who also love Cycling. Recently we went on a family ride in a very quiet part of the country. I waved down A vehicle that was approaching, that I viewed to becoming too fast for the single carriage Way, the driver pulled a strange face and waved back at me and continued. I shouted he stopped. He only stopped because I shouted. I am of the opinion that he would’ve continued straight ahead without slowing down, putting the lives of my wife and children in jeopardy.
I can take the risk when I’m out by myself, I may be hit by a careless motorist. I cannot accept a person driving a car, reacts to children on bicycles as an inconvenience on the road.

Without going into the details, the incident escalated. A bystander took footage, but only partially. He decided that I was the aggressor, and promptly posted it to a local Facebook page to identify me. I had already reported this, at the scene to the police, Who said they can do nothing to take Facebook pages down, Unless there is a direct threat to me personally. I have successfully had the list removed, but not before there were many many horrendous comments, some stating that if they saw me out, they’d “kill me”!!

Can any of you recommend small In obtrusive cameras that have long battery life with decent capture. Ideally I would like to mount one on my handlebars, and one underneath my saddle rear facing. I’ve looked at the fly cameras, they’re really expensive and the reviews aren't particularly good.

I liked the idea of the small gopros but battery life is limited to 90 minutes at best.

To all of you take care out there.

fastpedaller
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby fastpedaller » 22 May 2020, 4:48pm

Hope you get it sorted in your favour. Unfortunately our culture seems to have developed into one of victim blaming.

Django335
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Re: Getting fed up with abuse etc from some motorists.

Postby Django335 » 22 May 2020, 7:54pm

Thanks fast pedaler, me too.

Regards