carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
thirdcrank
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Jul 2020, 5:02pm

Re bike wheels sticking out sideways on a rear-mounted carrier, I think the basic rule is that the max projection is 305 mm (just over a foot in old money) subject to an overall width of 2.9 metres (Approx 9' 6" I think.)

As usual that's subject to lots of exceptions, some requiring things like marker boards and even an escorting vehicle.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... on/82/made

For anybody curious about definitions, they are on the page before that link

Bonefishblues
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2020, 5:09pm

I'm careful to make sure ours don't - but for very practical reasons!

Postboxer
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Postboxer » 21 Jul 2020, 5:51pm

Driver stopped on A47 with FOUR cycles attached to its boot


Except they aren't attached to the boot, they are on a towbar mounted rack aren't they? I can't see that the forces on the towbar will be anything like the forces on the towbar if they were towing a trailer or caravan. As long as they were attached securely, surely the only problem is the lack of visibility of the lights and number plate? Although maybe one of them is hanging down a bit low too.

Bonefishblues
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2020, 6:15pm

4 chunky bikes plus carrier would get close to the lower end of the typical caravan noseweight of 60-150kg

Bmblbzzz
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Bmblbzzz » 21 Jul 2020, 6:28pm

I'd say there are three problems with that load. I say problems specifically rather than illegalities:
    The additional width (as many drivers don't even allow for the extra width of a caravan, will this driver allow for the projection of wheels and bars?)
    The lack of rearward visibility (both rear window and mirrors obscured - a van with no rear window will have mirrors designed to compensate for this, a car does not)
    Rear lights and number plate not visible.

Pete Owens
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Pete Owens » 21 Jul 2020, 6:52pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:I'd say there are three problems with that load. I say problems specifically rather than illegalities:
    The additional width (as many drivers don't even allow for the extra width of a caravan, will this driver allow for the projection of wheels and bars?)

What additional width?

The angle of the photo makes the cycles look huge compared to the car, but they are obviously bog standard mountain bikes which would be marginally wider than the car if at all.
The lack of rearward visibility (both rear window and mirrors obscured - a van with no rear window will have mirrors designed to compensate for this, a car does not)

Rear mounted cycle racks are very common and you can see behind with normal wing mirrors. Small vans are just cars with no rear seating an no rear windows - There is nothing special about the wing mirrors - though you do need to use both of them.
Rear lights and number plate not visible.

The number plate is obscured, but lights would be visible through the spokes if they were lit.

And if anyone is going to get picky about this I hope your pedal reflectors are all in good order.

fastpedaller
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby fastpedaller » 21 Jul 2020, 6:57pm

Postboxer wrote:
Driver stopped on A47 with FOUR cycles attached to its boot


Except they aren't attached to the boot, they are on a towbar mounted rack aren't they? I can't see that the forces on the towbar will be anything like the forces on the towbar if they were towing a trailer or caravan. As long as they were attached securely, surely the only problem is the lack of visibility of the lights and number plate? Although maybe one of them is hanging down a bit low too.


The rack parting company with the car is IMHO unlikely, but whether the bikes are secure on the rack is another question - i wouldn't want to be behind it.

thirdcrank
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Jul 2020, 7:47pm

Perhaps the daftest thing about all this is the number of different bits of legislation covering this topic, all of which contain more words than you might want to count.

If this were to be an old-style police promotion exam question, the marking scheme would have points for the following:-

The load appears not to be securely fastened which may be an offence contrary to con & use reg 100.

Maintenance and use of vehicle so as not to be a danger, etc

100.—(1) A motor vehicle, every trailer drawn thereby and all parts and accessories of such vehicle and trailer shall at all times be in such condition, and the number of passengers carried by such vehicle or trailer, the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on such vehicle or trailer, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of such vehicle or trailer shall at all times be such, that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

Provided that the provisions of this regulation with regard to the number of passengers carried shall not apply to a vehicle to which the Public Service Vehicles (Carrying Capacity) Regulations 1984 apply.

(2) The load carried by a motor vehicle or trailer shall at all times be so secured, if necessary by physical restraint other than its own weight, and be in such a position, that neither danger nor nuisance is likely to be caused to any person or property by reason of the load or any part thereof falling or being blown from the vehicle or by reason of any other movement of the load or any part thereof in relation to the vehicle.

(3) No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... n/100/made

The rear lights appear to be obscured. That's covered by regulation 21 of the lighting regs, which goes to great lengths to say a lighting board is required without actually using the expression and there's too much to quote.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... on/21/made

The rear registration mark AKA number plate appears to be obscured and that's covered by a separate set of regs which stipulate not only that the reg plate must be visible, but where it has to be visible from.

(3) Where a vehicle (or, in a case where the plate is required to be fixed on a trailer, that trailer) has been constructed so as to satisfy the requirements of the relevant type-approval directive, whether or not it is required by law to satisfy them, the plate may be fixed in the space provided in accordance with those requirements but if it is not so fixed it must be fixed in the manner required by paragraph (5).

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (3) the plate must be fixed in the manner required by paragraph (5).

(5) This paragraph requires the plate to be fixed—

(a)vertically or, where that is not reasonably practicable, in a position as close to the vertical as is reasonably practicable, and
(b)in such a position that in normal daylight the characters of the registration mark are easily distinguishable from every part of a relevant area having the diagonal length specified in paragraph (6).
(6) The diagonal length of the relevant area is—

(a)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is at least 57 millimetres, 22 metres,
(b)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 50 millimetres, 21.5 metres,
(c)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 44 millimetres, 18 metres.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... ion/5/made

Finally, Regulation of those regs stipulates in some that the rear reg plate must be illuminated.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/200 ... ion/9/made

Remember that anybody enforcing this stuff at the roadside needs a reasonable working knowledge of the detail.

I've done this with the benefit of the internet, guided by knowing more or less where to look. (It's 49 years since I passed.)

mercalia
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby mercalia » 21 Jul 2020, 7:53pm

If the road cops dont know the legislation they should be moved else where. Some are pretty obvious & common sense any way?

thirdcrank
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Jul 2020, 8:06pm

They are indeed obvious and common sense and compliance is easy for anybody who is willing and able to shell out for a decent rack to hold the bikes safe and lighting board with rear reg plate if the bikes obscure the lights and or plate. The regs are a loophole merchant's paradise.

Bonefishblues
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2020, 8:20pm

mercalia wrote:If the road cops dont know the legislation they should be moved else where. Some are pretty obvious & common sense any way?

Oh give them both a chance :wink:

Bonefishblues
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2020, 8:21pm

thirdcrank wrote:They are indeed obvious and common sense and compliance is easy for anybody who is willing and able to shell out for a decent rack to hold the bikes safe and lighting board with rear reg plate if the bikes obscure the lights and or plate. The regs are a loophole merchant's paradise.

How about "the regs are incoherent"

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Mick F
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby Mick F » 21 Jul 2020, 8:29pm

fastpedaller wrote:Just seen this in the Eastern Daily Press - beggars belief how anyone thought it was safe!

Rusty chain and cassette too! :shock: :shock:
Mick F. Cornwall

thirdcrank
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Jul 2020, 8:48pm

Another point is that the regs don't form part of the "fatal four" ie they are not a priority for enforcement.

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... and-wales/

FOSS62
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Re: carrying bikes - How NOT to do it

Postby FOSS62 » 21 Jul 2020, 9:14pm

Pete Owens wrote:Yes, it should have a number plate attached - and whether the loading is sensible will depend on the weight of the car.

But this is just another straight anti-cyclist story. The police photo looks to be deliberately shot from an angle to make the bikes appear to look bigger and obscure more than they do. The story is shock horror at FOUR bikes.


And as regularly seems to be the case now, the story is accompanied by some made up nonsense about a legal requirement to be able to see through the back window. I suppose we could give the Police the benefit of the doubt and assume the journalist added that bit afterwards.