Witness or victim?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Cowsham
Posts: 633
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Cowsham » 7 Aug 2020, 3:34pm

jatindersangha wrote:
Cowsham wrote:Anybody got a link to the motorcyclist tapping him on the head ?


Original thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=117261

--Jatinder


:lol: just one question -- do you drive a car?

jatindersangha
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby jatindersangha » 7 Aug 2020, 4:03pm

Cowsham wrote::lol: just one question -- do you drive a car?


Yes, and strangely, regardless of how slowly I drive or my positioning, I'm not subjected to the same level of abuse from motorists as when I'm cycling.

Whilst driving, I've even been known to be courteous and considerate to cyclists ;-)

--Jatinder

Cowsham
Posts: 633
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Cowsham » 7 Aug 2020, 4:19pm

jatindersangha wrote:
Cowsham wrote::lol: just one question -- do you drive a car?


Yes, and strangely, regardless of how slowly I drive or my positioning, I'm not subjected to the same level of abuse from motorists as when I'm cycling.

Whilst driving, I've even been known to be courteous and considerate to cyclists ;-)

--Jatinder



Actually wasn't expecting that answer

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Aug 2020, 6:06pm

Can I just say that irrespective of whether the OP is or isn't a contributory factor in his incidents he's conducted himself on this thread remarkably controlled and respectful. Indeed he's had a lot of criticism and taken it very well indeed. He's also been the one to find the link to a thread containing an incident that from your sounds of the description could put his cycling style in a bad light. Basically helping one of his crticisers to potentially get more ammunition.

Whatever the reality I get the impression the OP would rather learn more than defend. Respect to him!!,

thirdcrank
Posts: 29426
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Aug 2020, 9:14pm

PDQ Mobile wrote: ... I think TC upthread was correct when he said you have been more of a "cyclist's champion" than others on here. Perhaps that remark was directed partially in my direction? ....


[canteen speak] And some fell on stoney ground...[/canteen speak]

ie Not you for one moment.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Aug 2020, 10:57pm

^^ cycle tramp.
I am not convinced (as should be obvious by now) and I think sometimes being in extreme primary can be counter productive.

I am not averse, you see, to being passed sensibly without forcing all the traffic over the line by any large margin.
It varies of course, depending on road width/markings/layout, general busyness, straightness of road, relative speeds or restricted vision.
Certainly my position is not set in stone but flexible at all times.
It also takes into account other road users.
They have their places to go, just as I do, and to enhance traffic flow is ok by me and I will promote if I can.
I have seldom experienced the problems the OP has, and he has them seemingly quite frequently.
Some close passes happen to me but only the odd one scarily so.

As for increasing visibility by being that extra half a meter or so out, I would say for reasons given upthread, only sometimes.
And often so marginally that other factors that induce peril are more relevant.
((See the thread about wearing black clothing in poor light conditions if you wish to complicate the debate further!!!))

For the quick witted the pavement or verge can be a place of refuge. IMHO

I gave the opinion that the OP's position made the white van fully enter the oncoming carriageway and that that van perhaps restricted the close pass driver's view.
The close pass driver then made a judgement error, partially at least, because his time to assess the oncoming car was shortened, he certainly appears to hesitate
I do not know this for certain of course, but it seems possible.

If that is the case then the OP's high primary is counterproductive for just everybody.
He has more than ample room to comfortably cycle along that road without subjecting himself to the gutter (sorry about that chaps!).
And still have "space to manoeuver" if he needs it.

Why not use more of that available space?
Being seen has certainly not helped in this instance?
Or?

cycle tramp
Posts: 833
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby cycle tramp » 7 Aug 2020, 11:16pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:^^ cycle tramp.
I am not convinced (as should be obvious by now) and I think sometimes being in extreme primary can be counter productive.

I am not averse, you see, to being passed sensibly without forcing all the traffic over the line by any large margin.
It varies of course, depending on road width/markings/layout, general busyness, straightness of road, relative speeds or restricted vision.
Certainly my position is not set in stone but flexible at all times.
It also takes into account other road users.
They have their places to go, just as I do, and to enhance traffic flow is ok by me and I will promote if I can.
I have seldom experienced the problems the OP has, and he has them seemingly quite frequently.
Some close passes happen to me but only the odd one scarily so.

As for increasing visibility by being that extra half a meter or so out, I would say for reasons given upthread, only sometimes.
And often so marginally that other factors that induce peril are more relevant.
((See the thread about wearing black clothing in poor light conditions if you wish to complicate the debate further!!!))

For the quick witted the pavement or verge can be a place of refuge. IMHO

I gave the opinion that the OP's position made the white van fully enter the oncoming carriageway and that that van perhaps restricted the close pass driver's view.
The close pass driver then made a judgement error, partially at least, because his time to assess the oncoming car was shortened, he certainly appears to hesitate
I do not know this for certain of course, but it seems possible.

If that is the case then the OP's high primary is counterproductive for just everybody.
He has more than ample room to comfortably cycle along that road without subjecting himself to the gutter (sorry about that chaps!).
And still have "space to manoeuver" if he needs it.

Why not use more of that available space?
Being seen has certainly not helped in this instance?
Or?


Never! I have always found the primary line to allow me to give better command of the road and better control of my road space. My life, and the life of any cyclist is a damn sight more important than those two additional minutes that a motor carriage user may save by attempting to over take any of us in a careless or reckless manner, and if I have to use my presence on the road to enforce this message then so be it and may God have mercy on those motor carriage users who attempt to persuade me otherwise, because they'll get damned all mercy from me.
Where I come from there is seldom the comfort of verge or pavement- only the clawing brambles of some seven foot high hedge or a five foot deep ditch full of black water. Let's screw our courage to the sticking place, which happens to be the primary line.

fastpedaller
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Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby fastpedaller » 7 Aug 2020, 11:34pm

[quote="PaulaT"]The last manoeuvre was a right turn into my road. I got a gap in the traffic, signalled right then pulled over to the centre of the road and guess what? Some stupid, stupid girl in a black Focus decided to overtake me whilst I was in the middle of the road signalling right/quote]

I had that happen to me once when I was driving a car! On getting to my destination 200 yards on. I checked the indicators, and yes, they were working (and, I add, were at the time of the almost incident - which fortunately I avoided)

fastpedaller
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Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby fastpedaller » 7 Aug 2020, 11:45pm

Some of the problem (close/dangerous) passing is when a motorist doesn't appreciate how fast a cyclist is moving. I've had some close ones (at my average of about 16MPH) maybe because the motorists expect most cyclists to be doing about 7 MPH? That doesn't excuse the motorist I saw yesterday (whilst I was driving) who overtook a lorry doing 50MPH+ in a 60 limit - They clearly HAD to get past, and did their move over central hatchings at a point where another road joined from the right! Thankfully no vehicle emerged from said road, otherwise it would have been an almighty collision. there's no logic to some road users.

Cowsham
Posts: 633
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Cowsham » 8 Aug 2020, 12:18am

PaulaT wrote:
Cowsham wrote: :lol: we've been had mate. You wouldn't cycle like that and put it all on YouTube for all to see if you weren't having a laugh.


Sorry Cowsham but I don't think that's a fair conclusion at all. But I do think he's been a total drama queen over nothing.


I think he maybe having a go at cyclists who do wobble around all over the place then get mad when someone over takes them. Like this guy

https://youtu.be/0jNErXUQuNc

Pete Owens
Posts: 1889
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Pete Owens » 8 Aug 2020, 12:58am

tim-b wrote:Hi
They don't need to understand why you are in primary - they just need to see that you are occupying the lane thus not offering them the opportunity to try to squeeze past.

Which for some is waving a red flag in front of a 1500kg bull. If they don't understand the need for the tactics that you are using, and they don't know the Bikeability "rules" then some won't play the game fairly

Certainly there are a minority of impatient drivers that will attempt to overtake where there is a gap that is marginally wider than a car - that is why it is a good idea to occupy those gaps to make it obvious to them.
See this thread (link) for an example of a driver who you'd imagine knows at least some rules but allegedly ignored the most basic ones


While the original post in that thread gave the impression on an innocent cyclist riding along when out of the blue they were hit from behind it turns out to be an escalating road rage incident initiated by the cyclist. As I understand it the sequence is as follows.
1. Cyclist overtakes slow moving car through a narrow gap on the left.
2. Traffic speeds up so driver overtakes the cyclist (presumably leaving them the same amount of space that the cyclist used for the first overtake)
3. Cyclist gets annoyed with the driver for doing to them what they had just done to the driver
4. Cyclist hits the car
5. Cyclist overtake again and cuts in front of the car
6. Driver hits the cyclist

This does not condone for one minute the drivers action, but it is most certainly not an example of a cyclist simply riding in primary. If you have just overtaken a driver through a narrow gap it is a tad unreasonable to expect the driver to give you more space than you gave them. If you overtake and then expect them to follow then you are just queue jumping.

Pete Owens
Posts: 1889
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Pete Owens » 8 Aug 2020, 1:11am

jatindersangha wrote:Hi all,

Within this thread, these words were used to describe the driving of the Golf - "The car approaches slowly and cautiously giving room". "wasn't really a close pass".

I think it was me who said it wasn't really an example of a close pass (and I was doing so to to counter those who were criticising your riding position).

To explain - it is obviously an example of extraordinarily bad driving which justifies the prosecution. However, the category of bad driving is not to try to squeeze through a narrow gap between you and an oncoming car (which is what a close pass is), but rather to try to race past on the other side of the road before the oncoming car closes the gap (which is cutting you up).

Road positioning is effective at preventing the former, but not the latter (though it does give you escape room)

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Aug 2020, 9:39am

As it's described in the last few posts, it sounds like a pretty good example of why the criminal courts look for independent evidence of what happened, especially when things heat up. And back to the OP, camera footage has been accepted as providing that evidence.

Let's go for it.

Vorpal
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Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Vorpal » 8 Aug 2020, 10:35am

The topic has been split. The discussion on road position is at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=139952
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Tangled Metal » 8 Aug 2020, 11:36am

And the off topic split was the bigger thread!! :lol: