Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Aug 2020, 3:04pm

Impatient overtakers affect everybody.

Yesterday, I was driving home through Drighlington in my stereotypical oldgitmobile Skoda Fabia.

At 29mph in a 30 zone, with a lot of parked cars and a fair bit of traffic, I was overtaken at some speed by a large saloon. While my attention was still on that car, another of the Berlingo type overtook me here as I was on the approach to this pedestrian crossing. I was a couple of metres further back than that black saloon when the overtaking vehicle's front passed mine. The google camera here gives a better view round the bend than the overtaker had.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.75398 ... 384!8i8192

Note that the crossing is just before an unsighted bend to the left and there's a junction on the right. Immediately round that bend is the entrance to the health centre carpark.

Luckily, no wrecks and nobody drownded. All recorded an my dashcam including my GPS-measured speed. I'm ashamed to say I decided I didn't want to get involved with reporting it. Not worried about being a witness etc., just didn't want to be wound up by the anticipated fobbing off.

So, hats off to the OP for persisting with his reports.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Jdsk » 12 Aug 2020, 3:28pm

thirdcrank wrote:Not worried about being a witness etc., just didn't want to be wound up by the anticipated fobbing off.

So, hats off to the OP for persisting with his reports.

I get the impression from CyclingMikey that his reports lead to prosecutions without much bother. And he even gives advice on the slickest way to report to the Metropolitan Police:
https://twitter.com/MikeyCycling
"For those reporting traffic offences to the Met portal, please use the upload facility on their form rather than YouTube or other cloud services. You save them quite a lot of work and thus help them to process more."

Does the relevant police force have a similar facility?

Jonathan

jatindersangha
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby jatindersangha » 12 Aug 2020, 4:07pm

Yes, Surrey police do have probably the same service as the Met now. You can fill the forms in online, upload files and/or add links to youtube etc.

The process is relatively quick - maybe takes 1-2 hours - generating a slow-motion video and/or trimming videos is time consuming.

I've reported 2 incidents to the City of London police - both resulted in action (1 driving course, 1 6pts on licence).

Surrey TPU have told me that as there's no minimum passing distance defined in law - then they won't prosecute a close-pass unless there are other aspects such as road-rage etc.

I've previously sent them videos of motorists overtaking just before blind bends etc - and I believe that Surrey TPU just ignores them.

--Jatinder

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Aug 2020, 4:19pm

The incident I witnessed was one of the worst cases of bad driving I have ever seen. It was pure good luck that the road remained clear. And I find myself saying "So what." It's not the prospect of going to court as a witness; I've been there, done it, no tee shirt nor even a wig but you know what I mean.

It's the prospect of being told "there's nothing we can do about it."

Incidentally, I've used dashcams for quite a while now, purely to have a record of what happened. I rarely review footage and when I do, it's usually to check what I did wrong.

Cowsham
Posts: 633
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Cowsham » 12 Aug 2020, 7:00pm

thirdcrank wrote:Impatient overtakers affect everybody.

Yesterday, I was driving home through Drighlington in my stereotypical oldgitmobile Skoda Fabia.

At 29mph in a 30 zone, with a lot of parked cars and a fair bit of traffic, I was overtaken at some speed by a large saloon. While my attention was still on that car, another of the Berlingo type overtook me here as I was on the approach to this pedestrian crossing. I was a couple of metres further back than that black saloon when the overtaking vehicle's front passed mine. The google camera here gives a better view round the bend than the overtaker had.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.75398 ... 384!8i8192

Note that the crossing is just before an unsighted bend to the left and there's a junction on the right. Immediately round that bend is the entrance to the health centre carpark.

Luckily, no wrecks and nobody drownded. All recorded an my dashcam including my GPS-measured speed. I'm ashamed to say I decided I didn't want to get involved with reporting it. Not worried about being a witness etc., just didn't want to be wound up by the anticipated fobbing off.

So, hats off to the OP for persisting with his reports.


Do you ever report littering with dashcam footage -- I do cos it's disgusting.

thirdcrank
Posts: 29424
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby thirdcrank » 12 Aug 2020, 7:29pm

Cowsham wrote: ... Do you ever report littering with dashcam footage -- I do cos it's disgusting.


I've never used dashcam footage for anything but reviewing something that has happened eg, a couple of times I've missed speed limit signs. By an unfortunate coincidence, the first time it happened I'd forgotten the was no memory card installed but I checked the area later in the day on the way home and the signs had been turned at 90degs. Part of the reason I had not noticed even that was because I had been carefully overtaking a cyclist.

On another occasion I had been paying attention to some complicated roadworks.

I don't think this has meant I was actually speeding. The turned signs were immediately before a speed camera and I didn't trigger it. Touch wood, I've never been in any sort of trouble and before anybody tells me I know all about lampposts and repeaters.

I agree totally about litter.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Aug 2020, 10:55am

thirdcrank wrote:Impatient overtakers affect everybody.

Yesterday, I was driving home through Drighlington in my stereotypical oldgitmobile Skoda Fabia.

At 29mph in a 30 zone, with a lot of parked cars and a fair bit of traffic, I was overtaken at some speed by a large saloon. While my attention was still on that car, another of the Berlingo type overtook me here as I was on the approach to this pedestrian crossing. I was a couple of metres further back than that black saloon when the overtaking vehicle's front passed mine. The google camera here gives a better view round the bend than the overtaker had.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.75398 ... 384!8i8192

Note that the crossing is just before an unsighted bend to the left and there's a junction on the right. Immediately round that bend is the entrance to the health centre carpark.

Luckily, no wrecks and nobody drownded. All recorded an my dashcam including my GPS-measured speed. I'm ashamed to say I decided I didn't want to get involved with reporting it. Not worried about being a witness etc., just didn't want to be wound up by the anticipated fobbing off.

So, hats off to the OP for persisting with his reports.

But there are differences here to the Op's incident.
Firstly you are traveling at the legal limit and he is not, (AFAIK).
Secondly to overtake you in car DOES entail going fully into the other lane.

Whereas the OP is on a bike.
It should be possible under normal road width circumstances to safely overtake a cyclist without going fully into the oncoming carriageway, IMHO.

There are good reasons which I have already outlined for this, not least the obstruction of line of sight for the following vehicles.
And improved traffic flow.
Improved traffic flow reduces unnecessary driver frustration.

I might add I always indicate to overtake cyclists, which few seem to do.
This indicating provides a significant clue to following vehicles that some deviation is likely in the next section of road.
This indicating clue can be seen really rather far back- multiple vehicles worth.
It is one of the most powerful taking control "tools" available to any driver.

It has been my opinion throughout that being overly far out as a cyclist reduces overall safety and traffic flow.
Nothing posted so far has led me to alter that view.

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Aug 2020, 11:37am

I don't think I've directly commented on this thread or the original from which it was split about the OP's riding.

My reason for posting on here about my incident was my realisation that I "didn't want to get involved."

Whatever anybody thinks about the OP's riding, he's achieved a result with the police: admittedly, that can be much harder than convincing fellow riders.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Jdsk » 13 Aug 2020, 11:56am

PDQ Mobile wrote:It should be possible under normal road width circumstances to safely overtake a cyclist without going fully into the oncoming carriageway, IMHO.

In general if you're going to overtake and leave insufficient space for an oncoming vehicle it's better to go right over. This decreases the steering angles and lets you get back on your own side quicker.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I might add I always indicate to overtake cyclists, which few seem to do.
This indicating provides a significant clue to following vehicles that some deviation is likely in the next section of road.
This indicating clue can be seen really rather far back- multiple vehicles worth.

Definitely. And I expect that we've all been passed very closely by following vehicles when the first and usually the second have seen us when the third and subsequent haven't.

Jonathan

Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Pete Owens » 13 Aug 2020, 12:02pm

So here we have thew auto-supremacist argument in a nutshell.

They expect to be able to overtake cyclists as and when they encounter them without waiting for a safe opportunity - so expect us to ride in the gutter in order that they can squeeze past. It is precisely to control of the impatient minority of motorists such as PDQ Mobile that it is sensible to ride in primary position unless there is sufficient width within the lane to allow safe overtaking - which on most roads there isn't.

Of course this is all dressed up as faux concern for our safety. The dangerous driver claims that if you don't allow him to overtake right now then he will become frustrated. And somehow his emotional inadequacy must be sated by allowing him to overtake whether or not it is safe to do so. This frustration is somehow our problem rather than his.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Aug 2020, 12:03pm

thirdcrank wrote:I don't think I've directly commented on this thread or the original from which it was split about the OP's riding.

My reason for posting on here about my incident was my realisation that I "didn't want to get involved."

Whatever anybody thinks about the OP's riding, he's achieved a result with the police: admittedly, that can be much harder than convincing fellow riders.

The OP has had, and posted videos of, multiple incidents.
Maybe his local roads and drivers are just plain awful?

Personally I don't need convincing that I should ride in extreme primary if those are the common consequences.

As for convincing the police.
Well yes, the driver made a stupid error of judgement and has been reprimanded for it. Fair enough.

The (at least partial) cause of that error remains something of a point of debate.

I just don't need the repeated agro, or the desire and hassle of having an insurance claim for my wife having to drive me to work, because I have lost confidence.
I want to just stay confident and sharp.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Aug 2020, 12:07pm

Pete Owens wrote:So here we have thew auto-supremacist argument in a nutshell.

They expect to be able to overtake cyclists as and when they encounter them without waiting for a safe opportunity - so expect us to ride in the gutter in order that they can squeeze past. It is precisely to control of the impatient minority of motorists such as PDQ Mobile that it is sensible to ride in primary position unless there is sufficient width within the lane to allow safe overtaking - which on most roads there isn't.

Of course this is all dressed up as faux concern for our safety. The dangerous driver claims that if you don't allow him to overtake right now then he will become frustrated. And somehow his emotional inadequacy must be sated by allowing him to overtake whether or not it is safe to do so. This frustration is somehow our problem rather than his.

It is not "faux concern" or auto supremacy at all.
But rather a sensible compromise to allow safe traffic flow for all road users.

One could say your argument is about cyclist supremacy.
And in view of the OP's multiple issues one that is at least open to question.

Cowsham
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Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Cowsham » 13 Aug 2020, 1:11pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Whatever anybody thinks about the OP's riding, he's achieved a result with the police: admittedly, that can be much harder than convincing fellow riders.



It's easier if your cycling mate is a policeman as Jatinder has admitted to already. Not only that but Jat couldn't believe how close to the kerb his friend rode -- welcome to the dawn.

jatindersangha
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby jatindersangha » 13 Aug 2020, 4:30pm

Just to be clear, my "cycling mate" is just an acquaintance that lives nearby - he works for the London Met not Surrey Police.

I don't think he has any desire to report bad driving and has no desire to help other cyclists with their reports etc, even if he's witnessed them!

I repeat, he's an acquaintance, that I wave to when cycling and we have occasionally cycled home together from the train station.

I don't think I would advise anyone to cycle on double yellow lines - but that is exactly where he cycles and does so very quickly!

--Jatinder

Edit: We used to ride from the station quite often (once a week or so) for a few weeks - before I changed my route and cycled to/from a different train station.

irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby irc » 13 Aug 2020, 5:29pm

Cowsham wrote:Do you ever report littering with dashcam footage -- I do cos it's disgusting.


There is the technical problem there that unless the video is enough to identify the driver a reg keeper is under no obligation to name the driver for a non traffic related offence.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/19 ... ection/172