Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
jatindersangha
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby jatindersangha » 7 Aug 2020, 2:44pm

Cowsham wrote:Just watched the " normal speed version " or as I'd like to call it " how not to cycle in traffic "

https://youtu.be/4BQkXBiQBNs

One piece of advice mate --- don't ever take up motorcycling !


In all seriousness, I have been thinking of doing an intensive motorcycle course ;-)

--Jatinder

jatindersangha
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby jatindersangha » 7 Aug 2020, 2:50pm

Cowsham wrote:Anybody got a link to the motorcyclist tapping him on the head ?


Original thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=117261

--Jatinder

DaveBeck
Posts: 58
Joined: 10 Aug 2019, 10:07am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby DaveBeck » 7 Aug 2020, 3:08pm

Pebble wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
DaveBeck wrote:Where do you live? It must be a bloody awful place wherever it is, because I really don't recognise the situation you describe where I live in Cornwall. Ok, you get the very occasional driver who may get a bit close, but very, very rarely do I get what feels to be a deliberate close pass, or what we would refer to as a "punishment pass." But by and large, I find that drivers give me space, don't follow too closely (sometimes they hang back too far, so they loose the opportunity to pass at a suitable spot when I would like them to get past), they certainly don't terrorise me.

Same here. Most drivers give me enough room whether I'm cycling or walking. Most stop at most Stop signs. Most negotiate appropriately in tight situations.

Yes most drivers do, probably well in excess of 99% get it right, but it only takes that one idiot driver who could end your days or put you in a wheel chair for the rest of your life. Even small low speed collisions can have life changing consequences for cyclists. There needs to be a zero tolerance approach.

For me I will endure about one close call every couple of month (1,500 mile) and that is one too many. The answer is not for me to move to Cornwall, I already live in a beautiful place with hundreds and hundreds of miles of very quiet roads, the answer has to be in better enforcement and more drivers losing their licences.


Hi Pebble,

I quite agree with you actually. But there is a gentleman on these forums who insists that most motorists (or mortons as he insists on calling them) break all traffic laws, and as most of us here probably also drive, by implication he is including all of us in that category. And by him trying to perpetuate the, "them and us" attitude really doesn't help matters, anymore than somebody standing by a pelican crossing, pushing the buttons in order to frustrate the free movement of traffic, which obviously includes cyclists. That's actually rather childish!

Hopefully if the new recommendations for the Highway Code come into being, they may help redress the balance so to speak. But I agree, harsher penalties for causing damage to a person, driving to be seen as a privilege, not a right and more licences revoked and not returned.

Dave B

Cowsham
Posts: 667
Joined: 4 Nov 2019, 1:33pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Cowsham » 7 Aug 2020, 3:34pm

jatindersangha wrote:
Cowsham wrote:Anybody got a link to the motorcyclist tapping him on the head ?


Original thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=117261

--Jatinder


just one question -- do you drive a car?

jatindersangha
Posts: 152
Joined: 23 Jun 2015, 11:19am

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby jatindersangha » 7 Aug 2020, 4:03pm

Cowsham wrote::lol: just one question -- do you drive a car?


Yes, and strangely, regardless of how slowly I drive or my positioning, I'm not subjected to the same level of abuse from motorists as when I'm cycling.

Whilst driving, I've even been known to be courteous and considerate to cyclists ;-)

--Jatinder

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Aug 2020, 6:06pm

Can I just say that irrespective of whether the OP is or isn't a contributory factor in his incidents he's conducted himself on this thread remarkably controlled and respectful. Indeed he's had a lot of criticism and taken it very well indeed. He's also been the one to find the link to a thread containing an incident that from your sounds of the description could put his cycling style in a bad light. Basically helping one of his crticisers to potentially get more ammunition.

Whatever the reality I get the impression the OP would rather learn more than defend. Respect to him!!,

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Aug 2020, 8:39pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Can I just say that irrespective of whether the OP is or isn't a contributory factor in his incidents he's conducted himself on this thread remarkably controlled and respectful. Indeed he's had a lot of criticism and taken it very well indeed. He's also been the one to find the link to a thread containing an incident that from your sounds of the description could put his cycling style in a bad light. Basically helping one of his crticisers to potentially get more ammunition.

Whatever the reality I get the impression the OP would rather learn more than defend. Respect to him!!,

I agree.
I had just written this to the OP so I'll just pop it here.
---------

Jatinder,
I am not trying to "get at you" here.
I applaud your continuing to cycle in such busy roads.

I think TC upthread was correct when he said you have been more of a "cyclist's champion" than others on here. Perhaps that remark was directed partially in my direction?

But my interest is genuinely not only in your safety but in making things out there on the road run as smoothly and safely as can be hoped for.
And for all road users.

And I do bring a long and diverse experience to the debate and a pretty good record too.
Not perfect, but then when I have made mistakes I try to use them to improve my roadcraft.

There are times where primary is counterproductive.
Slowster's considered assessment at the bottom of page 3 is very well put.

I do not cycle much in the conditions you experience every day.
Maybe I am wrong but I have tried to solid reasons why I think your position is likely contributory.
Good luck whatever.

thirdcrank
Posts: 29481
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Aug 2020, 9:14pm

PDQ Mobile wrote: ... I think TC upthread was correct when he said you have been more of a "cyclist's champion" than others on here. Perhaps that remark was directed partially in my direction? ....


[canteen speak] And some fell on stoney ground...[/canteen speak]

ie Not you for one moment.

cycle tramp
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Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Witness or victim?

Postby cycle tramp » 7 Aug 2020, 10:07pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:An often overlooked plus to being closer in is that the pavement is closer; in tight spots a place of refuge therefore more quickly available.


From my own experience, there's no gain what so ever placing yourself closer to the kerb- by placing yourself and your self propelled machine where a driver of a multi tracked vehicle would expect to find a powered two wheeler, you increase your visibility, insure that any vehicle wishing to pass has to make conscious decision to do so, and gives you additional space to manoeuvre into should you require it.

Tangled Metal
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Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Tangled Metal » 7 Aug 2020, 10:34pm

As a driver and cyclisti find you have to make a conscious decision to overtake a cyclist when driving no matter where they are in the road. What you possibly mean you have to make a conscious effort to move further out to overtake if the cyclist is further out but that isn't always the case. By overtaking at your normal distance out you can probably be certain the cyclist will move over towards where TBH most cyclists do ride around here.

I personally do not do that. When overtaking a cyclist I move out in an exaggerated manoeuvre as if the cyclist was actually a car no matter where they are in the road. I'm a right pain to fellow motorists because I do not rush to overtake cyclists. By making sure I can confidently overtake in a way that keeps the cyclist safe but also without any intimidation that nervous cyclists might feel I have another concern. That concern is that drivers behind me might get frustrated with me and then overtake more dangerously as a result. So far I have noticed that following motorists seem to take my hint and give plenty of room. Positive influence perhaps.

BTW even if the cyclist is waving me through I'll not overtake until I'm happy doing so. I'm not an exceptionally cautious driver I just don't want to be responsible for putting a nervous cyclist off riding. So it's possible I'm annoying motorists and cyclists.

My riding style is confident I reckon. I don't feel cycling is dangerous where I commute and ride for leisure. I've never had an accident and only one or two dangerous situations. On my regular routes I have learnt the road and most of the regular drivers. I find knowing the exact timing / cycles of lights, traffic habits at junctions, etc I think things become safer. Sometimes I've found being in am exposed position at multiple lane junctions is safer than taking the inside lane. That's completely location specific knowledge. I've seen fellow, regular commuters taking the most sensible lines but actually the most dangerous lines because of driver behaviour or junction specifics. I've coached a nervous cyclist on road positions before now and weeks later when I met them again I noticed them using my, less obvious line and was much less nervous.

The OP might just need to investigate whether there's a better line to take at those locations he's had issues. It might not be as simple as primary or secondary debate. I really don't know because I doubt he's cycling in an area I know.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby PDQ Mobile » 7 Aug 2020, 10:57pm

^^ cycle tramp.
I am not convinced (as should be obvious by now) and I think sometimes being in extreme primary can be counter productive.

I am not averse, you see, to being passed sensibly without forcing all the traffic over the line by any large margin.
It varies of course, depending on road width/markings/layout, general busyness, straightness of road, relative speeds or restricted vision.
Certainly my position is not set in stone but flexible at all times.
It also takes into account other road users.
They have their places to go, just as I do, and to enhance traffic flow is ok by me and I will promote if I can.
I have seldom experienced the problems the OP has, and he has them seemingly quite frequently.
Some close passes happen to me but only the odd one scarily so.

As for increasing visibility by being that extra half a meter or so out, I would say for reasons given upthread, only sometimes.
And often so marginally that other factors that induce peril are more relevant.
((See the thread about wearing black clothing in poor light conditions if you wish to complicate the debate further!!!))

For the quick witted the pavement or verge can be a place of refuge. IMHO

I gave the opinion that the OP's position made the white van fully enter the oncoming carriageway and that that van perhaps restricted the close pass driver's view.
The close pass driver then made a judgement error, partially at least, because his time to assess the oncoming car was shortened, he certainly appears to hesitate
I do not know this for certain of course, but it seems possible.

If that is the case then the OP's high primary is counterproductive for just everybody.
He has more than ample room to comfortably cycle along that road without subjecting himself to the gutter (sorry about that chaps!).
And still have "space to manoeuver" if he needs it.

Why not use more of that available space?
Being seen has certainly not helped in this instance?
Or?

cycle tramp
Posts: 846
Joined: 5 Aug 2009, 7:22pm

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby cycle tramp » 7 Aug 2020, 11:16pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:^^ cycle tramp.
I am not convinced (as should be obvious by now) and I think sometimes being in extreme primary can be counter productive.

I am not averse, you see, to being passed sensibly without forcing all the traffic over the line by any large margin.
It varies of course, depending on road width/markings/layout, general busyness, straightness of road, relative speeds or restricted vision.
Certainly my position is not set in stone but flexible at all times.
It also takes into account other road users.
They have their places to go, just as I do, and to enhance traffic flow is ok by me and I will promote if I can.
I have seldom experienced the problems the OP has, and he has them seemingly quite frequently.
Some close passes happen to me but only the odd one scarily so.

As for increasing visibility by being that extra half a meter or so out, I would say for reasons given upthread, only sometimes.
And often so marginally that other factors that induce peril are more relevant.
((See the thread about wearing black clothing in poor light conditions if you wish to complicate the debate further!!!))

For the quick witted the pavement or verge can be a place of refuge. IMHO

I gave the opinion that the OP's position made the white van fully enter the oncoming carriageway and that that van perhaps restricted the close pass driver's view.
The close pass driver then made a judgement error, partially at least, because his time to assess the oncoming car was shortened, he certainly appears to hesitate
I do not know this for certain of course, but it seems possible.

If that is the case then the OP's high primary is counterproductive for just everybody.
He has more than ample room to comfortably cycle along that road without subjecting himself to the gutter (sorry about that chaps!).
And still have "space to manoeuver" if he needs it.

Why not use more of that available space?
Being seen has certainly not helped in this instance?
Or?


Never! I have always found the primary line to allow me to give better command of the road and better control of my road space. My life, and the life of any cyclist is a damn sight more important than those two additional minutes that a motor carriage user may save by attempting to over take any of us in a careless or reckless manner, and if I have to use my presence on the road to enforce this message then so be it and may God have mercy on those motor carriage users who attempt to persuade me otherwise, because they'll get damned all mercy from me.
Where I come from there is seldom the comfort of verge or pavement- only the clawing brambles of some seven foot high hedge or a five foot deep ditch full of black water. Let's screw our courage to the sticking place, which happens to be the primary line.

fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby fastpedaller » 7 Aug 2020, 11:34pm

PaulaT wrote:The last manoeuvre was a right turn into my road. I got a gap in the traffic, signalled right then pulled over to the centre of the road and guess what? Some stupid, stupid girl in a black Focus decided to overtake me whilst I was in the middle of the road signalling right


I had that happen to me once when I was driving a car! On getting to my destination 200 yards on. I checked the indicators, and yes, they were working (and, I add, were at the time of the almost incident - which fortunately I avoided)

fastpedaller
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Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby fastpedaller » 7 Aug 2020, 11:45pm

Some of the problem (close/dangerous) passing is when a motorist doesn't appreciate how fast a cyclist is moving. I've had some close ones (at my average of about 16MPH) maybe because the motorists expect most cyclists to be doing about 7 MPH? That doesn't excuse the motorist I saw yesterday (whilst I was driving) who overtook a lorry doing 50MPH+ in a 60 limit - They clearly HAD to get past, and did their move over central hatchings at a point where another road joined from the right! Thankfully no vehicle emerged from said road, otherwise it would have been an almighty collision. there's no logic to some road users.

Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Road position discussion from 'Witness or victim' thread

Postby Pete Owens » 8 Aug 2020, 12:58am

tim-b wrote:Hi
They don't need to understand why you are in primary - they just need to see that you are occupying the lane thus not offering them the opportunity to try to squeeze past.

Which for some is waving a red flag in front of a 1500kg bull. If they don't understand the need for the tactics that you are using, and they don't know the Bikeability "rules" then some won't play the game fairly

Certainly there are a minority of impatient drivers that will attempt to overtake where there is a gap that is marginally wider than a car - that is why it is a good idea to occupy those gaps to make it obvious to them.