More drivers cleared after rider's death.

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Bonefishblues
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Bonefishblues » 8 Sep 2020, 10:58am

pwa wrote:There are people who genuinely don't care, I agree, but the chances are that the driver is more like you and me but has made a mistake that has cost someone else their life. I don't think you have to be a completely uncaring person to kill through negligence. I think all it takes is for you not to have recognised the extreme urgency of situation, the need to slow down right now because you have suddenly lost the ability to see the road clearly. We need to find a way of communicating this need to people who are very much like us, but who don't cycle as much as us and have not put this as high up their agenda as they ought.

I agree. By and large ordinary people have done something truly awful.

Jdsk
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Jdsk » 8 Sep 2020, 11:00am

Bonefishblues wrote:
pwa wrote:There are people who genuinely don't care, I agree, but the chances are that the driver is more like you and me but has made a mistake that has cost someone else their life. I don't think you have to be a completely uncaring person to kill through negligence. I think all it takes is for you not to have recognised the extreme urgency of situation, the need to slow down right now because you have suddenly lost the ability to see the road clearly. We need to find a way of communicating this need to people who are very much like us, but who don't cycle as much as us and have not put this as high up their agenda as they ought.

I agree. By and large ordinary people have done something truly awful.

Me too.

I'd add that in the overwhelming majority of previous similar situations nothing bad has happened. Human brains give enormous weight to that, and it will take some clever interventions to overcome it.

Jonathan

pwa
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby pwa » 8 Sep 2020, 11:21am

Jdsk wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pwa wrote:There are people who genuinely don't care, I agree, but the chances are that the driver is more like you and me but has made a mistake that has cost someone else their life. I don't think you have to be a completely uncaring person to kill through negligence. I think all it takes is for you not to have recognised the extreme urgency of situation, the need to slow down right now because you have suddenly lost the ability to see the road clearly. We need to find a way of communicating this need to people who are very much like us, but who don't cycle as much as us and have not put this as high up their agenda as they ought.

I agree. By and large ordinary people have done something truly awful.

Me too.

I'd add that in the overwhelming majority of previous similar situations nothing bad has happened. Human brains give enormous weight to that, and it will take some clever interventions to overcome it.

Jonathan

You mean "I have driven into blinding sunlight at 50 mph loads of times before and nothing bad has happened, so...."? Misplaced optimism based on previous good luck.

Jdsk
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Jdsk » 8 Sep 2020, 11:23am

I don't think that it's brought up to the level of conscious reasoning, I do think that it's a major determinant of behaviour in the real world.

Jonathan

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 8 Sep 2020, 11:38am

pwa wrote:You mean "I have driven into blinding sunlight at 50 mph loads of times before and nothing bad has happened, so...."? Misplaced optimism based on previous good luck.


No - it's a rationalisation... This scenario has played out many times without adverse result, why would I change my behaviour.

I don't agree with it, but it's what we do - we are very bad at assessing very small probability events.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby PDQ Mobile » 8 Sep 2020, 11:45am

I think it a bad judgement too.
In daylight and with no light requirement any rear end hit and the following vehicle is always to blame, unless no brake lights can be proved.
I have a great deal of sympathy with all concerned but the fault is clear IMV.
To walk away without any sanction (if that is the case?) seems wrong especially for the car that made the initial contact.

Postboxer
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Postboxer » 8 Sep 2020, 1:38pm

Again it comes down to at what distance could you see/not see the cyclist. The question should be at what distance could you see that the road was clear? The road wasn't clear, so they would have been unable to see that the road was clear, so they were going too fast.

Does anyone know what happens insurance claim wise in cases such as this? I assume there's no way the driver can dispute they were at fault for causing the accident, though I have no idea what amount, if any, the family can claim.

Jdsk
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Jdsk » 8 Sep 2020, 1:55pm

Is the trial continuing with other charges?

Jonathan

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby [XAP]Bob » 8 Sep 2020, 2:18pm

Postboxer wrote:Again it comes down to at what distance could you see/not see the cyclist. The question should be at what distance could you see that the road was clear? The road wasn't clear, so they would have been unable to see that the road was clear, so they were going too fast.



That is the key thing to convey to a juror... it’s not about whether you can see the obstruction, but about whether you can see the road to be clear.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Bowedw
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Bowedw » 8 Sep 2020, 2:22pm

Seems more like a reckless close pass to me. If the person who initially hit the cyclist with her wing mirror, had driven from her home, she would have been driving into the sun almost all of her journey. Granted that the uphill from Bow Street might have tilted the car more into the glare of the sun but taking into consideration, that two expert witnesses,came to different conclusions. only proves to me that money talks louder than their skills.


Jdsk
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Jdsk » 8 Sep 2020, 2:32pm

Got it, and that explains the continuation.

Thanks

Jonathan

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 8 Sep 2020, 2:41pm

Hi,
Another oldish story which I have highlighted previously.

Guy found dead in road.
Several IIRC (8) drivers had already reported the pedestrian in the road.
I believe the ped was under the influence.
Later............

1st driver hit the ped and he was flung over the bonnet.
2nd driver ran over the ped.
2nd driver said he thought his wife...........had hit a fox...... :twisted:
1st driver said he thought he was being mugged so did not stop............. :?

Arrests came after the garage reported blood under car of 2nd driver.

They both got off.
I cant remember if it was dark but the road despite road works was well lit and several...many more managed to avoid the ped.

Two more excuses to add to your book.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.

Jdsk
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby Jdsk » 8 Sep 2020, 3:49pm

Postboxer wrote:Does anyone know what happens insurance claim wise in cases such as this?

Usual process... but what do you mean by "such as this"?

Postboxer wrote:I assume there's no way the driver can dispute they were at fault for causing the accident, though I have no idea what amount, if any, the family can claim.

There are two drivers. But if a claim is made against either I wouldn't make that assumption. The fact of conviction can be offered in evidence in a civil action but it doesn't make the outcome automatic.

Jonathan

mumbojumbo
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Re: More drivers cleared after rider's death.

Postby mumbojumbo » 8 Sep 2020, 4:06pm

We were bombarded with road safety films and the emphasis was on a form of cavat emptor ie the pedestrian should protect themselves.The emphasis should be placed on drivers to take responsibility for safety of the vulnerable,and latterly for the environment.