Traffic Lights That Don't Sense Cyclists

[RichK]

Couple of sets like this near me that wont detect my steel framed commuter bike. One I've complained about several times, inclulding sending them film of me waiting 8 minutes with the lights cycling (not intended). council have done nothing. It's just another case of the council liking the pretence of promoting active travel but don't really want to actually do anything as long as they have the sound bite then the job is done.

[Audax67]

We have a few sets that show the usual contempt for cyclists, and to add insult to injury we also have some of those "slow-you-down" lights* which detect you slaving your guts out on a steep hill, well below the legal speed limit, and change to red just for devilment. Then, as soon as your foot touches the ground, they change back to green and you can hear the installer cackling all the way to the top. These things really ought not to detect us, but sadists being evil rotten pox-ridden whoreson** sadists they do. Most of them have cameras on top, too, so I always make a point of lifting a finger as I go by. I doubt if the message gets through but it affords me a modicum of satisfaction.

* dunno what the English jargon for these is but I'm sure there must be some. If not, I can certainly suggest a few appropriate terms.
** as you can tell, I've been reading classical literature lately

[thirdcrank]

Here's and earlier thread on this subject with several posts from me covering what I believe to be the legal situation, then, right at the end, an explanation of the layout of sensors. It may be out-of-date in that I don't follow things like traffic advisory leaflets any more.

viewtopic.php?p=195908#p195908

[foxyrider]

There is a set of lights, over a narrow railway bridge, in North Somerset that are particularly annoying. More so because it's on an NCN route and there are signs instructing cyclists to obey the signals! Being on demand makes it very frustrating, the optical sensor just doesn't see cyclists. End result is that most cyclists ignore all the warnings and the signals.

I'm sure anyone who rides regularly north of Weston will know where this is.

There used to be a set of on demand lights, now replaced, in Sheffield that didn't even pick up on buses - ironic because they controlled a bus gate! I've known buses and bikes wait through 4 cycles before something has finally triggered the control.

[Mick F]

Highway Code Rule 176.

If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

It doesn't specify what "not working" means, but if the lights don't change at all, to my mind, they ain't working!

[Audax67]

Highway Code Rule 176.

If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

It doesn't specify what "not working" means, but if the lights don't change at all, to my mind, they ain't working!

Carry an axe just to make sure.

[rmurphy195]

There's another fun one that I noted in Shrewsbury last time I was there - some bright spark has had the idea of making pedestrian lights go red at random intervals even if no pedestrians are present to press the button! So much for anticipating that they won't change as you pedal towards them ...

[thirdcrank]

There is a set of lights, over a narrow railway bridge, in North Somerset that are particularly annoying. More so because it's on an NCN route and there are signs instructing cyclists to obey the signals! Being on demand makes it very frustrating, the optical sensor just doesn't see cyclists. End result is that most cyclists ignore all the warnings and the signals.

I'm sure anyone who rides regularly north of Weston will know where this is. ...

My campaigning days are long gone and social media were then in their infancy. IMO, if anybody is really bothered about it, that needs a report to the relevant traffic authority, backed up if necessary with a letter to the relevant local councillor - preferably one with cabinet responsibility for cycling/ green travel etc., and if no success I'd suggest all over facebook, youtube or whatever

There used to be a set of on demand lights, now replaced, in Sheffield that didn't even pick up on buses - ironic because they controlled a bus gate! I've known buses and bikes wait through 4 cycles before something has finally triggered the control.

We had something similar in Leeds with a bus + cycle contraflow. Very busy with buses during the day, thin on the ground overnight and early on Sunday mornings. The sensors were only activated by buses (to deter prohibited traffic) and even when activated only turned green every other cycle of the lights. When the problems were raised at a cycling consultation meeting by another cyclist, I added my concerns. I was rubbished by an employee of the council seconded to the failed Supertram project who pontificated (in-joke there for other Leeds campaigners of that era) at some length but showing only his ignorance. I kept my own council till I was 100% sure of my facts which included some midnight cycling so my tests were not affected by too many buses. Then I let them know the facts.

Eventually, we had an afternoon site meeting with the senior traffic light person with a hapless underling who had been instructed to ride a council bike. Futile because there were too many buses at 4pm and pointless because they already knew but were slow to admit that something tweaked to detect only the top of double-decker buses would never detect cyclists. One result of that was that the top traffic light man gave me his direct dialling in number so I could cut out all the intermediaries. And that's all you need: a channel to the person who can sort it out.

[mjr]

There is a set of lights, over a narrow railway bridge, in North Somerset that are particularly annoying. More so because it's on an NCN route and there are signs instructing cyclists to obey the signals! Being on demand makes it very frustrating, the optical sensor just doesn't see cyclists. End result is that most cyclists ignore all the warnings and the signals.

I'm sure anyone who rides regularly north of Weston will know where this is. ...

My campaigning days are long gone and social media were then in their infancy. IMO, if anybody is really bothered about it, that needs a report to the relevant traffic authority, backed up if necessary with a letter to the relevant local councillor - preferably one with cabinet responsibility for cycling/ green travel etc., and if no success I'd suggest all over facebook, youtube or whatever

I suspect it's Hewish railway bridge. There's infrared sensors which are unable to see cyclists when the sun is behind them. It was reported and dismissed until (if I remember correctly) a local cycling group were almost run over en masse by a 4x4 because the sensors failed to detect they hadn't cleared the narrows or even the blind brow and released oncoming traffic.

The "solution" was to put up blue signs and tell cyclists to use the narrow painted footway that's falling down the side of the embankment. I don't know if they've fixed it properly in the six or so years since I lived near. I suspect the micturating contest between Network Rail and North Somerset over who pays will continue until NCN 33 is diverted away from the bridge along the WC&P rail trail. Still not great for cyclists between Hewish and Congresbury heading to/from Weston.

[mjr]

Highway Code Rule 176.

If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

It doesn't specify what "not working" means, but if the lights don't change at all, to my mind, they ain't working!

Now that government policy is to encourage walking and cycling, any traffic lights that favour the dominant motoring route instead of the main cycling route are "not working", right?

[[XAP]Bob]

You’ve completely missed the memo.

Gov policy is to *talk* about promoting active travel, not to actually do it.

[foxyrider]

There is a set of lights, over a narrow railway bridge, in North Somerset that are particularly annoying. More so because it's on an NCN route and there are signs instructing cyclists to obey the signals! Being on demand makes it very frustrating, the optical sensor just doesn't see cyclists. End result is that most cyclists ignore all the warnings and the signals.

I'm sure anyone who rides regularly north of Weston will know where this is. ...

My campaigning days are long gone and social media were then in their infancy. IMO, if anybody is really bothered about it, that needs a report to the relevant traffic authority, backed up if necessary with a letter to the relevant local councillor - preferably one with cabinet responsibility for cycling/ green travel etc., and if no success I'd suggest all over facebook, youtube or whatever

I suspect it's Hewish railway bridge. There's infrared sensors which are unable to see cyclists when the sun is behind them. It was reported and dismissed until (if I remember correctly) a local cycling group were almost run over en masse by a 4x4 because the sensors failed to detect they hadn't cleared the narrows or even the blind brow and released oncoming traffic.

The "solution" was to put up blue signs and tell cyclists to use the narrow painted footway that's falling down the side of the embankment. I don't know if they've fixed it properly in the six or so years since I lived near. I suspect the micturating contest between Network Rail and North Somerset over who pays will continue until NCN 33 is diverted away from the bridge along the WC&P rail trail. Still not great for cyclists between Hewish and Congresbury heading to/from Weston.

Indeed, Hewish it is. Not seen any signs suggesting use of a path - last time i went through, @ 4 weeks ago, it had just been chipped and there were no road markings at all. The only signs there were 'cyclists must obey traffic signals', one by the stop line and a repeater about 10m further on, on both sides.

A question - where is the 'WC&P rail trail'?

[mjr]

A question - where is the 'WC&P rail trail'?

Northeast from Icelton on https://www.cyclosm.org/#map=14/51.3931/-2.8847/cyclosm

[basingstoke123]

Highway Code Rule 176.

If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.

It doesn't specify what "not working" means, but if the lights don't change at all, to my mind, they ain't working!

It's always difficult to know how long to wait before giving up and proceeding through on red. In typical junctions with little traffic, lights usually change in a few seconds (seems longer when it is raining!). Lights for road works are often much longer, to allow traffic to get through (but not long enough for slow up hill cyclists).

Often, side junctions will be omitted if they have not detected any demand. So, it is then much easy to know that you haven't been detected because your phase got left out.

There is no valid reason for lights not to detect cyclists. If the in road loop can not be made to work reliably, then an above ground sensor can be mounted on the traffic light. For some reason, local HAs seem reluctant to do this, but eventually did install sensors on a couple junctions in Basingstoke - but only after many months of repeated complaints and failed attempts at adjusting loop sensitivity.

If lights do not work, then report them. They will not fix themselves! I used to report to both the police (non-emergency - just to cover myself, and to get a police reference number), and to the local authority (Hampshire CC) web site. But I no longer have the energy to report new problems to HCC. A 2 month response time (response, not solution) for HCC would be fast. And the local police are no longer interested and will not record it.

But other authorities may be more responsive. Cambridge is.

The most difficult to fix are lights that usually, but not always, detect a cycle.



Have there been any prosecutions of cyclists going through faulty traffic lights?

I do not advocate this, but could the fact that some lights are unreliable in detecting cyclists be used as a defence (a legal loophole)? Defence barrister: and how long did the cyclist wait at the lights? You don't know? He was only seen going through the red lights, but not how long he had waited? It is a matter of fact that some junctions do not reliably detect cyclists. So, how reliable is this junction at detecting cyclists? 50% of the time? 90%? 95%? Where are your test results to prove this junction always (or even usually) detects cyclists?

[foxyrider]

A question - where is the 'WC&P rail trail'?

Northeast from Icelton on https://www.cyclosm.org/#map=14/51.3931/-2.8847/cyclosm

Ah, i've seen that as a possible through route on the OS but not got as far as trying it. Is it road bikeable?