First e-scooter prang

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Jdsk » 28 Sep 2020, 2:34pm

I'm reasonably sure that bikes can outbrake scooters, but I'd like to see it tested.

For me "excessive" only works in a particular context rather than as an absolute speed.

Jonathan

whoof
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Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby whoof » 28 Sep 2020, 2:53pm

Saw this on the local paper (website) today.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... ts-section


Perhaps it's the fact they failed to stop that resulted in a trip to court rather than a talking to.

For those would don't want to open the often annoying Bristol Post website.E-Scooter rider receives fine for no insurance or licence although with it's usual clarity the article says 'pleaded guilty to these three offences'.

cycle tramp
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby cycle tramp » 28 Sep 2020, 6:43pm

Haitch wrote:My educated guess (physics o level and an interest in physics through astronomy as a hobby) is that 15mph for the bike isn’t excessive


Would it seem excessive if you had studied sociology or humanities instead? :-)

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby kwackers » 13 Oct 2020, 12:01pm

DevonDamo wrote:The OP said both him and the e-scooter were doing 13-15mph round a blind bend. Like freeflow, I'd say that was a daft thing to do. I'm not being holier than thou here, because I occasionally do something similar at a particular point on one of my regular routes, but whenever I get/give a fright, it's all 'whoops - sorry mate' - definitely not trying to blame it all on the other person.

There's a growing number of cyclists of late who think taking fast racing lines through blind bends on paths occupied by peds is OK.
Looking at the complaints in the local social groups it would appear it's not only me that's noticing this.

In contrast the escooter riders I've seen have been pretty well behaved but I suspect that's a combination of lower numbers and lower speeds rather than anything special about them. Idiots are idiots regardless of method of travel.

As an aside scooter numbers are up enormously near me in the past few months so I suspect they're here to stay and we should probably get used to them. I noticed you can hire them in Liverpool too now (I didn't think Liverpool was on the list of places they were being trialled).
The only way they'll go away now is if they're replaced with something else...

Bmblbzzz
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Oct 2020, 12:29pm

Rather than saying "vehicle type XYZ is illegal" I would look at the circumstances of this specific incident. For instance, what was the actual visibility from each direction? Who, if either - or maybe both, was on the wrong side of the path?

Bmblbzzz
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Oct 2020, 12:31pm

Haitch wrote:My educated guess (physics o level and an interest in physics through astronomy as a hobby) is that 15mph for the bike isn’t excessive and fairly easy to slow or stop compared to a scooter with all of your weight well above the main structure meaning any sudden braking is going to propel you off it.

Suddenly placing the rider's entire bodyweight (with momentum) on to the bars and steerer, causing the steerer to break?

kwackers
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby kwackers » 13 Oct 2020, 3:38pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
Haitch wrote:My educated guess (physics o level and an interest in physics through astronomy as a hobby) is that 15mph for the bike isn’t excessive and fairly easy to slow or stop compared to a scooter with all of your weight well above the main structure meaning any sudden braking is going to propel you off it.

Suddenly placing the rider's entire bodyweight (with momentum) on to the bars and steerer, causing the steerer to break?

Braking on a scooter means you brace yourself by leaning back - unless you're caught by surprise by a vehicle suddenly appearing in the opposite direction and then personally being upright as opposed to being headfirst would be my preferred position since I can try to use my hands and arms to fend off the approaching invader.

I think that neither bikes nor scooters have much to shout about when it comes to braking, high centre of gravity doesn't help either and pitching over the bars isn't the best way to dismount.
Assuming the scooter has a front brake then I don't know which of the two I'd put money on stopping in the shortest distance, scooters do tend to have wider tyres...


I suspect the steerer on a scooter probably breaks at the hinge.
However like bikes they come in different flavours of robustness and I suspect some of the cheaper ones probably have pretty lightweight shafts (but they're usually the slower ones anyway).

mercalia
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby mercalia » 13 Oct 2020, 5:48pm

kwackers wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:
Haitch wrote:My educated guess (physics o level and an interest in physics through astronomy as a hobby) is that 15mph for the bike isn’t excessive and fairly easy to slow or stop compared to a scooter with all of your weight well above the main structure meaning any sudden braking is going to propel you off it.

Suddenly placing the rider's entire bodyweight (with momentum) on to the bars and steerer, causing the steerer to break?

Braking on a scooter means you brace yourself by leaning back - unless you're caught by surprise by a vehicle suddenly appearing in the opposite direction and then personally being upright as opposed to being headfirst would be my preferred position since I can try to use my hands and arms to fend off the approaching invader.

I think that neither bikes nor scooters have much to shout about when it comes to braking, high centre of gravity doesn't help either and pitching over the bars isn't the best way to dismount.
Assuming the scooter has a front brake then I don't know which of the two I'd put money on stopping in the shortest distance, scooters do tend to have wider tyres...


I suspect the steerer on a scooter probably breaks at the hinge.
However like bikes they come in different flavours of robustness and I suspect some of the cheaper ones probably have pretty lightweight shafts (but they're usually the slower ones anyway).


Breaking on an escooter must be a bit of a skill as there are so few contact points - standing on rather than straddling like a bike, not a good recipe for keeping control.

kwackers
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby kwackers » 13 Oct 2020, 5:59pm

mercalia wrote:Breaking on an escooter must be a bit of a skill as there are so few contact points - standing on rather than straddling like a bike, not a good recipe for keeping control.

I think braking safely on anything requires skill - probably considerably more skill then going forwards!

Bike or scoot it's only emergency braking that's an issue, simply slowing down is pretty safe on either.

IME scooters are pretty easy to brake on, I guess if you were daft enough to brace against the bars then you'll learn quick enough it's a bad thing - and fortunately quite quickly at low speeds.
Under hard braking both have an issue with the front breaking away and learning you can go over the bars on a bicycle isn't a lesson you'll likely learn at low speed like on a scoot.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Oct 2020, 7:36pm

I didn't imagine the rider was bracing against the bars but that their bodyweight was thrown forwards on to them.

Tangled Metal
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Tangled Metal » 13 Oct 2020, 8:32pm

I went from a road bike which needed new brake pads and I suspect wheel rims to riding a hybrid with hydraulic brakes. I once braked on a downhill a little too hard because it led to a busy road. I connected quite forcefully with my stem despite going very slowly.

Is that the sort of thing you expect on an e scooter? If so I can assure you that based on my experience with hydraulic brakes on a bicycle you only do that once. Also on a bike that hurts a lot.

It seems to me that some of the problems being described with the e scooters and especially braking are similar to what I've had non-cycling acquaintances say about cycling. In their case introducing them to cycling could educate them on the truth. Perhaps more people need to actually try e scooters and give them an honest trial.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Bmblbzzz » 13 Oct 2020, 9:33pm

Either like that or at the actual moment of collision, yes. TBH the actual mode of steerer failure is kind of irrelevant; we know it happened and that it happened as a result of the collision the OP describes. It's hardly knowledge that would contribute to the avoidance of future head-on collisions (a collision mode that as noted is hardly unique to scooters).

kwackers
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby kwackers » 13 Oct 2020, 10:29pm

Tangled Metal wrote:It seems to me that some of the problems being described with the e scooters and especially braking are similar to what I've had non-cycling acquaintances say about cycling. In their case introducing them to cycling could educate them on the truth. Perhaps more people need to actually try e scooters and give them an honest trial.

I've got one here in my hall I borrowed from a guy at work - back in February.
It's like everything, you very quickly learn how it works and you ride it to suit.

It's main advantage I found was on the train. It's just so small and easy to manage - beats a bicycle hands down every time.
And back in the heydays of packed public transport it could make the difference between getting on the train or not.

Probably moot, be a while before passenger numbers are back (if ever) and since I work in Liverpool it might be a significant time before we go back to the office (if ever).

Whilst I've been furloughed I've entertained myself occasionally by taking the scooter out before its owner asks for it back. It's really quite pleasant along the local paths and bike lanes.
Standing upright gives you a much better view of the world I found...

Ignoring the mass hysteria surrounding them I think it'd be a mistake if they weren't legalised.
Their compact size and ease of use offers so much.
(I'm a lot less enamoured by the dockless rental schemes though)

Tangled Metal
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby Tangled Metal » 14 Oct 2020, 7:22am

I'm against their use and sale now because they're technically not legal aiui. That's not to say I don't see their merit just that I'm against improper use such as on places it's not allowed.

That objection would go if there was a change in policy such that they are legal where people want to use them. Then my concerns will be no different from other means of personal mobility. Namely speed, style of riding(dangerous or safe) and the users hazard awareness / concern for more vulnerable users of the same route.

Just like I don't like lockdown runners pushing past young kids nearly sending then into a canal I won't like e-scooterists doing similar. We all just need to work out the details of shared use/ shared space. Not that we're very good at that with existing transportation/ mobility methods.

kwackers
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Re: First e-scooter prang

Postby kwackers » 14 Oct 2020, 10:43am

Tangled Metal wrote:I'm against their use and sale now because they're technically not legal aiui. That's not to say I don't see their merit just that I'm against improper use such as on places it's not allowed.

Chicken and egg.
If nobody had one there'd be no discussion about making them legal.
The discussion exists because they're popular.

In that respect I feel morally bound to ride the one I've borrowed around the local park - I should do that shortly before I get caught up doing something.
(I have to start WFH at the start of November - booo! Being furloughed has given me a taste of my impending retirement and I'm wanting more.)