Could the non-drivers not take a train?

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Bonefishblues
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby Bonefishblues » 16 Nov 2020, 3:53pm

Because 'the answer' is actually a series of measures IMHO.

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mjr
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby mjr » 16 Nov 2020, 6:23pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:The reason greenways have no surveillance by HPMVAV is because they can not travel along the greenways.

The KL greenways and MK redways can and are used by police car-sized objects, but they do have to get out to open gates and drop bollards at places, so they aren't seen there all that often. It can be quite a surprise to round a tight tree-lined bend and find all but 75cm of the width occupied by a cop car: the widths were designed for the emergency and maintenance vehicles of the 1970s and they're wider now. As are bikes, but fortunately not by much.

We do still have some police on bikes in KL, but not as many as 6-10 years ago... but that's true of police in general. I've no idea if MK still has bike police.

thirdcrank wrote:By coincidence:

Britain's first ROBOT delivery vehicle completes maiden journey on London roads... but don't expect it to bring you large parcels

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/car ... shift.html

How is that the first when those Starship ones in MK have been delivering for co-op and others for over 2 years now? Daily Heil up to its usual standard of fact-checking?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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rmurphy195
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby rmurphy195 » 17 Nov 2020, 4:55pm

Back to the original question - here's an interesting scenario ...

I'm due a pre-op assessment for an operation next week. The clinic is maintaining strict Covid screening.

Following the pre-op assessment ill be the op (hopefully). The clinic asks patients to remain in isolation for at least 2 weeks prior to the operation.

I won't be able to drive or cycle back after the op, so of course I won't be doing so to get there - another member of my household will drive me, because I can't use public transport without coming out of isolation and risking picking up the virus on my person or clothing on the way!

If I were a non-driver living alone, some organising would be necessary (though the clinic does provide a bus, restricted to 3 occupants, if needed).
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Jdsk
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby Jdsk » 17 Nov 2020, 5:40pm

If anyone doesn't have a solution for getting to an NHS hospital I suggest contacting the local PALS (or equivalent in other countries).
https://www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/nhs-services-and-treatments/what-is-pals-patient-advice-and-liaison-service/

Jonathan

MikeF
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby MikeF » 20 Nov 2020, 3:17pm

Jdsk wrote:
MikeF wrote:
atlas_shrugged wrote:The future is Ultra Light Aerodynamic vehicles - Not Ford Mondeos.
I'm sure you're right there. Many electric cars are being made as though were the same as petrol/diesel ones, but electric powered. Consideration doesn't seem to have been made as to where this energy is coming from, which is the crucial point. :roll:

There's been enormous consideration to the sources for EVs. At all levels: original source, transmission, load balancing, storage, tariffs, charging points...

And it's coming together nicely. In the UK it would be good to have more certainty about future subsidies and taxes to remove barriers to switching.

Ultralight vehicles are fascinating and i expect to see more great designs. But heavy vehicles that look like cars will be around in large numbers for many decades to come.

Jonathan

Indeed, but not the source of power which is the crucial point. You can have all the infrastructure you want, but without power it isn't any use.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

Jdsk
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby Jdsk » 20 Nov 2020, 4:43pm

That's about the source of the electricity to charge battery vehicles?

Jonathan

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 1 Dec 2020, 3:04pm

MikeF wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
MikeF wrote: I'm sure you're right there. Many electric cars are being made as though were the same as petrol/diesel ones, but electric powered. Consideration doesn't seem to have been made as to where this energy is coming from, which is the crucial point. :roll:

There's been enormous consideration to the sources for EVs. At all levels: original source, transmission, load balancing, storage, tariffs, charging points...

And it's coming together nicely. In the UK it would be good to have more certainty about future subsidies and taxes to remove barriers to switching.

Ultralight vehicles are fascinating and i expect to see more great designs. But heavy vehicles that look like cars will be around in large numbers for many decades to come.

Jonathan

Indeed, but not the source of power which is the crucial point. You can have all the infrastructure you want, but without power it isn't any use.


I'll just get a diesel generator and buy red diesel then.
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kwackers
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby kwackers » 1 Dec 2020, 3:37pm

I can't believe the old "there isn't enough electricity for EV's" nonsense is still doing the rounds.

If 10 million EV's hit the roads tomorrow (they won't) we'd still be using less power than we would a few years ago.
The folk in charge of the grid say there's enough and by the time 10 million EV's do hit the road we'll have added more energy to the mix too.

Yet some bloke(?) on the internet says there isn't enough...

I don't know who to believe now... :roll:

Jdsk
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby Jdsk » 1 Dec 2020, 3:41pm

kwackers wrote:The folk in charge of the grid say there's enough and by the time 10 million EV's do hit the road we'll have added more energy to the mix too.

Agreed x2.

Jonathan

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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby MikeF » 3 Dec 2020, 9:42am

Jdsk wrote:
kwackers wrote:The folk in charge of the grid say there's enough and by the time 10 million EV's do hit the road we'll have added more energy to the mix too.

Agreed x2.

Jonathan
The grid only distributes electricity; it does not generate it. The "grid people" say the distribution system can cope with increased generation and distribution. If you want to see sources of electric power that is being used then see this website.https://gridwatch.co.uk.
You then need to calculate how much extra energy is needed to power all the electric vehicles. I don't have that figure but it would be possible to make a rough estimate. Have you done that or have you a figure? It's also worth noting that a large proportion of our electricity production is from combined cycle gas turbine, which is not an unlimited source and it generates some CO2.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

Jdsk
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby Jdsk » 3 Dec 2020, 9:53am

But the National Grid is in an excellent position to talk about current (!) and future demand and capacity of supply as well as of distribution.

Here's a recent accessible piece on EVs:
"6 myths about electric vehicles busted"
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

And here's the long version: "Future Energy Scenarios"
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/future-energy-scenarios/fes-2020-documents

Jonathan

MikeF
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby MikeF » 3 Dec 2020, 3:35pm

Jdsk wrote:But the National Grid is in an excellent position to talk about current (!) and future demand and capacity of supply as well as of distribution.

Here's a recent accessible piece on EVs:
"6 myths about electric vehicles busted"
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

And here's the long version: "Future Energy Scenarios"
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/future-energy-scenarios/fes-2020-documents

Jonathan
Yes indeed, and I stated that about National Grid in my post.
As stated on their website this is what National Grid does "We move electricity through the system" .
However what the National Grid doesn't do is generate any power and that is the fundamental point. To make a similar analogy with water although it's not quite the same as water isn't generated. In times of drought it's not the pipework in the roads and elsewhere that causes problems for users, but the lack of water to put through them.

You need to look at the link I gave previously https://gridwatch.co.uk or similar ones to understand what the issues are.

It's simply is how do we generate enough electrical energy. That's the question. It won't magically happen at the flick of a switch or laying a cable. It's also worth noting that nuclear power is about 30% efficient so a lot of thermal energy is used in heating the sea around us :wink:
Last edited by MikeF on 3 Dec 2020, 3:50pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kwackers
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby kwackers » 3 Dec 2020, 3:45pm

MikeF wrote:Yes indeed, and I stated that about National Grid in my post.
As stated on their website this is what National Grid does "We move electricity through the system" .
However what the National Grid doesn't do is generate any power and that is the fundamental point. To make a similar analogy with water although it's not quite the same as water isn't generated. In times of drought it's not the pipework in the roads and elsewhere that causes problems for users, but the lack of water to put through them.

You need to look at the link I gave previously https://gridwatch.co.uk or similar ones to understand what the issues are.

It's simply is how do we generate enough electricity electrical energy. That's the question. It won't magically happen at the flick of a switch or laying a cable. It's also worth noting that nuclear power is about 30% efficient so a lot of thermal energy is used in heating the sea around us :wink:

If you think all the national grid does is "move electricity around" then it's no wonder you're confused.

They're also responsible for figuring out who should generate electricity and when they should do it.
They're fully aware of demand, generation - both current and future.
In short they're responsible for making sure the grid can cope at any given point in time and work with generators to ensure it runs smoothly.
In absolute terms they know what demand is, who can deliver and when.

You can't just hook up your generator to the grid and start generating, not without their say so.

MikeF
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby MikeF » 3 Dec 2020, 3:55pm

kwackers wrote:
MikeF wrote:Yes indeed, and I stated that about National Grid in my post.
As stated on their website this is what National Grid does "We move electricity through the system" .
However what the National Grid doesn't do is generate any power and that is the fundamental point. To make a similar analogy with water although it's not quite the same as water isn't generated. In times of drought it's not the pipework in the roads and elsewhere that causes problems for users, but the lack of water to put through them.

You need to look at the link I gave previously https://gridwatch.co.uk or similar ones to understand what the issues are.

It's simply is how do we generate enough electricity electrical energy. That's the question. It won't magically happen at the flick of a switch or laying a cable. It's also worth noting that nuclear power is about 30% efficient so a lot of thermal energy is used in heating the sea around us :wink:

If you think all the national grid does is "move electricity around" then it's no wonder you're confused.

They're also responsible for figuring out who should generate electricity and when they should do it.
They're fully aware of demand, generation - both current and future.
In short they're responsible for making sure the grid can cope at any given point in time and work with generators to ensure it runs smoothly.
In absolute terms they know what demand is, who can deliver and when.

You can't just hook up your generator to the grid and start generating, not without their say so.

Yes I agree and that's what I said. Now give me some figures about how much electrical power will be needed to replace the petrol and diesel fuel and how it will be produced. Both of you seem to be missing some fundamental issues here.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

kwackers
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Re: Could the non-drivers not take a train?

Postby kwackers » 3 Dec 2020, 4:16pm

MikeF wrote:Yes I agree and that's what I said. Now give me some figures about how much electrical power will be needed to replace the petrol and diesel fuel and how it will be produced. Both of you seem to be missing some fundamental issues here.

8000 miles per year at 4 miles per kwh is 2MW per Year per EV.
10 million EV's is 20,000 GW per Year.
365 days per year is 55GW per day.
Assuming they mostly charge up in the 8 hours at night (smart chargers) that's about 7GWh for those 8 hours.

The grid typically dips 15GWh during the night anyway and this is 10 million cars which is probably a decade away.
A fair proportion of EV owners are likely to get solar, there'll be multiples of the current numbers of wind turbines etc etc.

Not sure why you need me to tell you any of this, the folk running the grid who's job includes working out whether it has or will have the capacity to cope already say it will.
Why doubt them?