Toucan cyclist detectors?

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mikeymo
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby mikeymo » 14 Nov 2020, 11:30pm

Ellieb wrote:I understood it to be that if the signal was a red man then it was advisory on a bike, but if it was a red bike then it was mandatory to stop.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

and

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-pedestrians-1-to-35

Although the second doesn't distinguish between pelican and puffin (or toucan) on the basis of detectors, but based on where the signal is placed, and on the phasing.

tim-b
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby tim-b » 15 Nov 2020, 7:09am

Hi
The detectors are usually PIR around here and look like these boxes above the light head (link)
Pelican are old-tech and use a timed delay with the flashing amber phase as additional protection for those who aren't as quick on their feet
Puffins and Toucans don't need a flashing amber because they use PIR to "see" people on the crossing and slow the phase changes. It makes sense that the lights can change when you're in the central res because a staggered crossing is legally two crossings, whether PIR can change the second crossing automatically will depend on how it's been designed
If it's a crossing for cyclists only then you must obey the lights
And finally...trivia round
What do pelican, puffin and toucan stand for? (they are loose acronyms BTW)
Regards
tim-b
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tim-b
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby tim-b » 15 Nov 2020, 7:34am

Hi
One thing I have noticed is that if I have a hub dynamo fitted on my bicycle, I seem to be more easily able to trigger sensing loops that are meant for cars. Has anyone else noticed this?

Induction loops are much better with horizontal masses rather than vertical masses of metal but they should be capable of detecting a CF bike with its relatively small metallic mass. The dyno hub is more easily detectable due to a greater mass of metal and :?: possibly the dyno generation effect :?:
Cycling through the centre of of some loop designs is more effective due to the symmetry in a magnetic field, ask your LA about this one because some designs are better to one side
Regards
tim-b
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thirdcrank
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Nov 2020, 8:14am

Quite a large part of our GDP comes from employing people to write traffic regulations and the TSRGD is no exception. Traffic lights are in The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 SCHEDULE 14

Cutting through the verbiage as best I can, subject to numerous twiddly bits, here's the law on red traffic lights:-

5(3) .... the red signal conveys the prohibition that vehicular traffic must not proceed beyond the stop line.


And this is cyclists at Toucan-type crossings

9(3) The significance of a red symbol when illuminated is that, in the interests of safety, pedestrian, equestrian or cyclist traffic (as the case may be) should not use the crossing.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/14/made

Anybody interested in twiddly bits, tramcars, swing bridges and so much more will find plenty to go at in there.

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mjr
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby mjr » 15 Nov 2020, 11:14am

Ellieb wrote:I understood it to be that if the signal was a red man then it was advisory on a bike, but if it was a red bike then it was mandatory to stop.

That is incorrect. See thirdcrank's post for the law.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thirdcrank
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Nov 2020, 11:22am

If there are any horsey folk reading this, AIUI, if you are simply riding a horse, then you may legally ignore traffic lights (at your peril.) OTOH, you cannot drive a horse-and-cart / coach-and-four through this regulation (assuming there's room between the barriers.)

tim-b
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby tim-b » 15 Nov 2020, 3:17pm

Hi
mjr wrote:
Ellieb wrote:I understood it to be that if the signal was a red man then it was advisory on a bike, but if it was a red bike then it was mandatory to stop.

That is incorrect. See thirdcrank's post for the law.

Also see s33(2) and s36(1) The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Cyclists must stop at " Light signals for the control of vehicular traffic consisting exclusively of pedal cycles"
Those light signals are at sch 8 but only include a "conventional" circular red traffic light rather then a BSO, with amber and green BSOs below
Regards
tim-b
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thirdcrank
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Nov 2020, 3:31pm

tim-b wrote: ... Also see s33(2) and s36(1) The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Cyclists must stop at " Light signals for the control of vehicular traffic consisting exclusively of pedal cycles"
Those light signals are at sch 8 but only include a "conventional" circular red traffic light rather then a BSO, with amber and green BSOs below ...


That reminds me that if anybody is wondering how the man on the Clapham Omnibus - or rather the bloke on a bike crossing Leeds Ring Road - should know this. here's the relevant bit of the HC

Rule 80
Toucan crossings. These are light-controlled crossings which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share crossing space and cross at the same time. They are push-button operated. Pedestrians and cyclists will see the green signal together. Cyclists are permitted to ride across.

Rule 81
Cycle-only crossings. Cycle tracks on opposite sides of the road may be linked by signalled crossings. You may ride across but you MUST NOT cross until the green cycle symbol is showing.

Law TSRGD regs 33(2) & 36(1)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... s-59-to-82

The tell-tale being that there's no legislation quoted under Rule 80

basingstoke123
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby basingstoke123 » 15 Nov 2020, 4:53pm

thirdcrank wrote:
tim-b wrote: ... Also see s33(2) and s36(1) The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Cyclists must stop at " Light signals for the control of vehicular traffic consisting exclusively of pedal cycles"
Those light signals are at sch 8 but only include a "conventional" circular red traffic light rather then a BSO, with amber and green BSOs below ...


That reminds me that if anybody is wondering how the man on the Clapham Omnibus - or rather the bloke on a bike crossing Leeds Ring Road - should know this. here's the relevant bit of the HC

Rule 80
Toucan crossings. These are light-controlled crossings which allow cyclists and pedestrians to share crossing space and cross at the same time. They are push-button operated. Pedestrians and cyclists will see the green signal together. Cyclists are permitted to ride across.

Rule 81
Cycle-only crossings. Cycle tracks on opposite sides of the road may be linked by signalled crossings. You may ride across but you MUST NOT cross until the green cycle symbol is showing.

Law TSRGD regs 33(2) & 36(1)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway ... s-59-to-82

The tell-tale being that there's no legislation quoted under Rule 80


Nor any mandatory 'you MUST' / 'you MUST NOT' in the text.

I do not think I have ever come across a cycle only crossing in the UK. At most toucan crossings, I have normally crossed before the cycle/pedestrian phase goes green - walking or cycling.

The problem with sharing a crossing is that the timings are based on a slow pedestrian, and not appropriate for cyclists. This is especially the case when the crossing is part of a road junction, and the cycle/pedestrian phase goes green automatically while on on road is held at red. But then goes to red far too early, when there is still plenty of time to cycle cross.

I recently observed the lights at one of the (many) large roundabouts in Basingstoke. While the total light cycle time varied between 40 and 60 sec, depending of the amount of traffic, pedestrians / cyclists were only given 10 sec of green. There was then up to 20 sec before the road traffic got green. It means unless you arrives just when the road traffic stopped, you have to wait a full cycle before getting green to cross. Interestingly, every other person (cyclist/pedestrian) I saw, crossed on red! This rather defeats the purpose of the lights.

The request push buttons were also redundant, and serve no purpose, except in testing your patience!

thirdcrank
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Nov 2020, 5:12pm

If I have understood the OP correctly, I think I may have an idea of what is causing the mysterious/ confusing activation.

Around here (A650, A62) we have several sets of traffic lights which default to ALL RED if no approaching traffic is detected. I've not been around them all to check but my impression is that at those with pedestrian farcilities, the green man comes on automatically. I assume that this ALL RED feature is intended as some form of traffic-calming. The problems include the fact that some drivers who anticipate being stopped race towards the lights. Another is that some drivers assume that any red signal is a response to no traffic, rather than traffic on another leg.

Perhaps something similar is installed at the OP's crossing.

tim-b
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby tim-b » 15 Nov 2020, 7:13pm

thirdcrank wrote:If I have understood the OP correctly, I think I may have an idea of what is causing the mysterious/ confusing activation.

Around here (A650, A62) we have several sets of traffic lights which default to ALL RED if no approaching traffic is detected. I've not been around them all to check but my impression is that at those with pedestrian farcilities, the green man comes on automatically. I assume that this ALL RED feature is intended as some form of traffic-calming. The problems include the fact that some drivers who anticipate being stopped race towards the lights. Another is that some drivers assume that any red signal is a response to no traffic, rather than traffic on another leg.

Perhaps something similar is installed at the OP's crossing.

Puffin crossings need a combination of a button-push and detection of a pedestrian at the kerb. If the button is pressed but a pedestrian isn't detected within a few seconds then the crossing ignores the button. Older toucan crossings for some reason (maybe because the length of a bike puts the cyclist outside the detection zone?) don't use the kerb side detectors, so your theory could be correct and if the road lights change then so does the (empty) crossing
Regards
tim-b
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mikeymo
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby mikeymo » 15 Nov 2020, 8:50pm

thirdcrank wrote:If I have understood the OP correctly, I think I may have an idea of what is causing the mysterious/ confusing activation.

Around here (A650, A62) we have several sets of traffic lights which default to ALL RED if no approaching traffic is detected. I've not been around them all to check but my impression is that at those with pedestrian farcilities, the green man comes on automatically. I assume that this ALL RED feature is intended as some form of traffic-calming. The problems include the fact that some drivers who anticipate being stopped race towards the lights. Another is that some drivers assume that any red signal is a response to no traffic, rather than traffic on another leg.

Perhaps something similar is installed at the OP's crossing.


Thanks. I may have misread what actually happened. Though it would be a completely bonkers bit of road to have a "default to all red" for motorised traffic on the road. You'll know where that crossing is. Ring Road between the Harrogate Road and King Lane roundabouts, opposite Fir Tree school (which isn't, anymore, I think). Much as we'd like drivers to slow down a bit, that would be a crazy place to make them stop without reason (unlike King Lane to Weetwood, which is actually 70 mph).

It'll be next weekend before I get a chance to cycle out and experiment. The half way space in the middle of the carriageway is great, it's almost the size of a tennis court. Until they put the lights in, I just circled round and round until I saw a gap in the traffic. Come along, we'll have a "site visit", I'll show you our wonderful new ring road cycleway, sole user - me.

mikeymo
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby mikeymo » 15 Nov 2020, 8:55pm

basingstoke123 wrote:The problem with sharing a crossing is that the timings are based on a slow pedestrian, and not appropriate for cyclists. This is especially the case when the crossing is part of a road junction, and the cycle/pedestrian phase goes green automatically while on on road is held at red. But then goes to red far too early, when there is still plenty of time to cycle cross.


Yes, but as we've established that these are "advisory" (I think), then so long as you know how it works you could cycle across anyway (if I've understood what you mean).

I wonder, are there any Toucan crossings where the red bicycle appears later than the red pedestrian? I'll have a look sometime.

mikeymo
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby mikeymo » 15 Nov 2020, 9:01pm

basingstoke123 wrote:I do not think I have ever come across a cycle only crossing in the UK.


No, me neither. Or maybe I've just not noticed them.

thirdcrank has pointed one out in the city we both live in. But to be honest I don't think I've ever cycled that particular way. Though I have cycled through City Square once. Just the once, and it was only moderately terrifying.

thirdcrank
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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Postby thirdcrank » 15 Nov 2020, 9:33pm

Good luck with your investigation. (I'll pass, on the site visit.)

It's stating the obvious to suggest that somebody at Leeds Cycling Campaign may know the answer to your query.

http://www.leedscyclingcampaign.co.uk/

From looking at streetview, I see the arrangement until recently was a a white line down the middle of the approach paths and CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs (the highwaymen's tacit admission of incompetence) all around the crossing. There must be somebody at Leeds City Council who knows. One mistake I made was to accept the invitation to a consultation meeting. Don't assume that anybody involved with cycling had any input, but it does look like an improvement as against CYCLISTS DISMOUNT.

Another possibility is Cllr John Illingworth. He represents Kirkstall but lives in Cookridge. Twenty years ago he was active in the promotion of cycling and knew the score. I've had no contact with him for quite some time.

https://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=192