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Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 9:42pm
by mikeymo
thirdcrank wrote:Good luck with your investigation. (I'll pass, on the site visit.)

It's stating the obvious to suggest that somebody at Leeds Cycling Campaign may know the answer to your query.

http://www.leedscyclingcampaign.co.uk/

From looking at streetview, I see the arrangement until recently was a a white line down the middle of the approach paths and CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs (the highwaymen's tacit admission of incompetence) all around the crossing. There must be somebody at Leeds City Council who knows. One mistake I made was to accept the invitation to a consultation meeting. Don't assume that anybody involved with cycling had any input, but it does look like an improvement as against CYCLISTS DISMOUNT.

Another possibility is Cllr John Illingworth. He represents Kirkstall but lives in Cookridge. Twenty years ago he was active in the promotion of cycling and knew the score. I've had no contact with him for quite some time.

https://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=192


Yes, good ideas, thanks.

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 10:35pm
by Ellieb
Hmm. I am still a bit (easily) confused. You are at a Toucan crossing which has the signals: red man, green man & green bike (but no red bike). If the red man is showing, is it legal to ride a bike across?

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 6:28am
by tim-b
Hi
Read the "Wording of the Highway Code" ( Highway Code gov link )
Compare Highway Code rules 80 and 81 ( Highway Code gov link )
Rule 80 has neither a "must / must not" nor a link to law and is therefore advisory, whether it's advisable to cross against red is down to your good judgement
Regards
tim-b

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 7:15am
by Cyril Haearn
Might be best to wait for green to avoid the risk of being dealt with by a PSO who does not know the law

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 8:02am
by mikeymo
Cyril Haearn wrote:Might be best to wait for green to avoid the risk of being dealt with by a PSO who does not know the law


What is a PSO?

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 8:49am
by thirdcrank
I see that among other things, PSO = protected species observer. Cyclists are not a protected species in Leeds so you should be OK, although I don't know the act and section

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 9:09am
by Cyril Haearn
PSO, PSP
Police-shaped object, could be a real Constable or a PCSO or a sheriff employed by a shopping centre, the city, etc etc

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 4:12pm
by mjr
basingstoke123 wrote:[...] Interestingly, every other person (cyclist/pedestrian) I saw, crossed on red! This rather defeats the purpose of the lights.

The request push buttons were also redundant, and serve no purpose, except in testing your patience!

The request push buttons do serve a purpose: it increases the amount of time that people will wait for a badly-timed crossing. Apparently to almost half in your example!

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 4:13pm
by mjr
Cyril Haearn wrote:Might be best to wait for green to avoid the risk of being dealt with by [police] who does not know the law

Any police officer with the power to deal with this should probably be challenged and provoked into checking the actual law before they get a more serious law wrong - so it is your civic duty to assist with police education by crossing on the red man when possible!

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 4:14pm
by Cyril Haearn
Indeed, I like arguing, but what if Sargent Constable is in a bad mood? Besides, the cops do much more than just traffic, they have to learn lots of complicated laws, not sure I could do that, tomorrow they might be dealing with football hooligans etc &c
..
It is all far too complicated, the coloured lights and buttons, with the intention of 'saving' mortons a few seconds, - 1!

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 6:06pm
by mikeymo
Cyril Haearn wrote:...they have to learn lots of complicated laws, not sure I could do that...


I'm sure you could. After all, you're an intellectual, and you've demonstrated your appreciation for the precise use of languages, ancient and modern, many times in your posts.

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 6:10pm
by mjr
Cyril Haearn wrote:Indeed, I like arguing, but what if Sargent Constable is in a bad mood?

I suspect they'd try to provoke you into swearing at them or taking a swing at them and then deal with you as a public order offence, rather than persist with a traffic offence where they've got the law wrong. ;)

Besides, the cops do much more than just traffic, they have to learn lots of complicated laws, not sure I could do that, tomorrow they might be dealing with football hooligans etc &c

I'm sure it's a very difficult job but that doesn't mean they should discourage good things by doing it wrong.

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 16 Nov 2020, 10:31pm
by Stevek76
kylecycler wrote: in fact AFAIK a Toucan is just a Puffin with entitlement for cyclists as well as pedestrians, at least without dismounting, which they are required to do for the other types of crossing


It's a common misconception but certainly for zebras there is no requirement to dismount providing both sides are shared use/cycle paths, however you do not have as much legal protection when crossing mounted vs dismounted. I'm reasonably sure this applies to puffins/pelicans also where they haven't been swapped out for toucans. Ultimately you're allowed to cycle on the road and you're allowed to cycle on a shared use pavement so there's nothing inherent in the crossing that actually means you have to get off.

mikeymo wrote:I wonder, are there any Toucan crossings where the red bicycle appears later than the red pedestrian?


Nope.

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 17 Nov 2020, 1:17am
by Pete Owens
Stevek76 wrote:It's a common misconception but certainly for zebras there is no requirement to dismount providing both sides are shared use/cycle paths, however you do not have as much legal protection when crossing mounted vs dismounted. I'm reasonably sure this applies to puffins/pelicans also where they haven't been swapped out for toucans. Ultimately you're allowed to cycle on the road and you're allowed to cycle on a shared use pavement so there's nothing inherent in the crossing that actually means you have to get off.

So long as there are no pedestrians using the zebra crossing at the time - in which case vehicles (and that includes bicycles) are not allowed to use that particular part of the road. And since the zebra doesn't accord priority to cyclists in the same way it does to pedestrians then drivers do not have to stop for you until you get off and become a pedestrian.

The same applies to puffin/pelican crossings - the only time you can legally ride on the crossing is when the red man is displayed.

Re: Toucan cyclist detectors?

Posted: 17 Nov 2020, 6:18am
by tim-b
Hi
And finally...trivia round
What do pelican, puffin and toucan stand for? (they are loose acronyms BTW)

No takers?
Pelican Crossing-1960s public information film link (with acronym)
Puffin: Pedestrian User-Friendly INtelligent crossing
Toucan: Two Can cross (we probably all knew that one)
Regards
tim-b