High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
Posts: 15470
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2020, 10:46am

PDQ Mobile wrote:Too easy just to write that.
Leccy "too cheap to meter" too, no doubt!

It was cheaper than free the other night... ;)
Not that I'd ever say it'll be too cheap to meter - there'll always be infrastructure costs.

PDQ Mobile wrote:As for "soon arriving at a junction near you", I personally very much doubt it, in the total control form you foresee.

The problem with that statement is that it ignores the fact it's already here.
I work enough with ML (machine learning) to see what's happening in the world and to have a realistic idea of what's possible.
There's nothing magical about driving cars, certainly nothing that can't be done better by computers - and for most scenarios already is.

ML/AI is going through exponential growth at the moment, stuff just a couple of years ago we didn't think would be possible by machines is now routinely done by them.
They can process so much data simultaneously it makes our intuition gained by balancing half a dozen variables in our heads look positively steam punk.
It's an exciting (and scary) time.
I personally wouldn't miss it for the world.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30879
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Nov 2020, 10:49am

peetee wrote:I do wonder if, when self-driving cars become a thing on our streets, some human drivers will take risks because they see them as being over cautious - in much the same way as they would with cyclists and learner drivers, for example; hasty overtaking, driving too close.


This is going to be the crux of the transition period. Driving requires various qualities. The technical skills are arguably most important in slow-speed manoeuvring: when I took my test the dreaded three-point turn and reversing round a corner. AI is a dab hand at that and improving all the time. Then, there's the elusive "judgment" which is often more a matter of risk-taking. eg Believing you can see round corners.

This is IMO inevitably going to be the big deal when there's a mix of drivers and driverless. There is also the matter of road users who are not in motor vehicles: pedestrians, cyclists, gee gees and livestock more generally. The very broad choice IMO will be between insisting driverless cars are invariably cautious or restricting the others eg with guard rails, cycle farcilities, and more fences in open country.

And the decisions will be driven by the automobile manufacturing lobby

(I had to break off whily typing so loads of intervening posts.)

User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 4198
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby simonineaston » 18 Nov 2020, 10:53am

Rather 'orses dung than cows... how many tummies does an 'orse 'ave? Not 4 like a cow... how do they manage?? I think being a ruminant is just an excuse to have a nice lie down and eat twice the number of meals!
(rides: Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 18 Nov 2020, 10:55am

kwackers wrote:
peetee wrote:I do wonder if, when self-driving cars become a thing on our streets, some human drivers will take risks because they see them as being over cautious - in much the same way as they would with cyclists and learner drivers, for example; hasty overtaking, driving too close.

They already do - where over cautious means driving at or near to the speed limit.
Loads of great examples of such behaviour on YouTube.


Next big gov announcement: from 2040 all new cars must be self driving with dual mode vehicles banned by 2045.
(TBH I suspect insurance costs of DIY driving will be the limiting factor in the future - that and the need for a license).

I think you're probably right in your predictions,it's the intrim period that concerns me.
TBH I getting absolutely piddled off with tailgaters,which I'd care less about if I were slowing the idiots down but when I'm driving at the speed limit(usually a 30 or 40) in stream of other vehicles and some numptie is 2m or less from my rear end it's more than a leettle concerning,especially when I'm on the motorbike!
Last edited by reohn2 on 18 Nov 2020, 10:56am, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Jdsk
Posts: 6152
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 18 Nov 2020, 10:55am

simonineaston wrote:Rather 'orses dung than cows... how many tummies does an 'orse 'ave? Not 4 like a cow... how do they manage??

One. Hindgut fermentation! See also rhinos, rabbits, koalas...

Jonathan

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 18 Nov 2020, 10:59am

simonineaston wrote:Rather 'orses dung than cows...

We're on a slippery slope(camber?) with this one :shock:
-----------------------------------------------------------

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 18 Nov 2020, 11:01am

Jdsk wrote:
simonineaston wrote:Rather 'orses dung than cows... how many tummies does an 'orse 'ave? Not 4 like a cow... how do they manage??

One. Hindgut fermentation! See also rhinos, rabbits, koalas...

Jonathan

I try not to think about ir unless I absolute must :?
-----------------------------------------------------------

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8804
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Nov 2020, 11:08am

PDQ Mobile wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Lots of things we take for granted were once fantasy.

It'll be here soon enough.


Too easy just to write that.
Leccy "too cheap to meter" too, no doubt!

I try not to take anything for granted.
It often ends in disappointment.

As for "soon arriving at a junction near you", I personally very much doubt it, in the total control form you foresee.

I am not taking anything for granted.

I'm embracing the possibilities of the future in an optimistic way because I can see some solutions to trenchant issues that would benefit society as a whole and our community in particular.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8804
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Nov 2020, 11:09am

kwackers wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Too easy just to write that.
Leccy "too cheap to meter" too, no doubt!

It was cheaper than free the other night... ;)
Not that I'd ever say it'll be too cheap to meter - there'll always be infrastructure costs.

PDQ Mobile wrote:As for "soon arriving at a junction near you", I personally very much doubt it, in the total control form you foresee.

The problem with that statement is that it ignores the fact it's already here.
I work enough with ML (machine learning) to see what's happening in the world and to have a realistic idea of what's possible.
There's nothing magical about driving cars, certainly nothing that can't be done better by computers - and for most scenarios already is.

ML/AI is going through exponential growth at the moment, stuff just a couple of years ago we didn't think would be possible by machines is now routinely done by them.
They can process so much data simultaneously it makes our intuition gained by balancing half a dozen variables in our heads look positively steam punk.
It's an exciting (and scary) time.
I personally wouldn't miss it for the world.

Well said.

Jdsk
Posts: 6152
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 18 Nov 2020, 11:10am

Bonefishblues wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Lots of things we take for granted were once fantasy.

It'll be here soon enough.


Too easy just to write that.
Leccy "too cheap to meter" too, no doubt!

I try not to take anything for granted.
It often ends in disappointment.

As for "soon arriving at a junction near you", I personally very much doubt it, in the total control form you foresee.

I am not taking anything for granted.

I'm embracing the possibilities of the future in an optimistic way because I can see some solutions to trenchant issues that would benefit society as a whole and our community in particular.

And the limiting factor for realising those benefits is going to be how smart we are on the regulatory and insurance fronts, not the availability of the technology.

Jonathan

StephenW
Posts: 158
Joined: 22 Sep 2010, 11:33am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby StephenW » 18 Nov 2020, 11:20am

Jdsk wrote:
StephenW wrote:
StephenW wrote:If we seek to squash down the opportunities for risk-taking in one area of life, will it pop up somewhere else, perhaps in a worse form?

Not necessarily.

Jonathan


Is an individual's appetite for risk fairly fixed, or does it depend on the situation? (nature vs nurture etc.)

If the former, perhaps we should be positively encouraging "good" risk-taking activities? Perhaps this would make relinquishing control of the car more tolerable?

By "good", I mean activities where the risks to the participant are greater than the risks to other bystanders, and where the perceptions of risk of the participants are in line with the reality.

Jdsk
Posts: 6152
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 18 Nov 2020, 11:29am

In this forum I can see where this is going. I'll give it three posts...

StephenW wrote:By "good", I mean activities where the risks to the participant are greater than the risks to other bystanders, and where the perceptions of risk of the participants are in line with the reality.

I'm not sure that you meant it quite like that... as a first approximation only the bystanders should be making decisions on risks to themselves. As printed on the back of tickets to motor sports events.

You often see statements in dangerous sports along the lines of "He knew the risk he was taking". This is rarely true in any quantitative sense. And we're learning more about cognitive biasses that get in the way.

But basically I don't think that there's any law of conservation of risk. Almost every aspect of life has become safer.

Jonathan

User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 4198
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby simonineaston » 18 Nov 2020, 11:37am

absolutely piddled off with tailgaters
It wasn't until i took a ride with a work-colleague who leases a fairly upmarket Mercedes that I realised that the whole "driving" thing is changing. Phil's Merc does quite a lot of driving, and he leaves it up to the car to do stuff like staying in lane and judging the distance between the front of his car and the rear of the car in front. This, for a whole new generation, is "driving"... the on-board radar keeps an eye on the distances and reacts appropriately, although the judgements may not align with the comfort of risk-adverse old-fashioned manual drivers.
Funnily enough, my car will park itself, but a) at extra initial cost and b) I may not be able to replicate its digital precision, but I do it a bloody sight quicker!
(rides: Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)

kwackers
Posts: 15470
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2020, 11:48am

simonineaston wrote:It wasn't until i took a ride with a work-colleague who leases a fairly upmarket Mercedes that I realised that the whole "driving" thing is changing. Phil's Merc does quite a lot of driving, and he leaves it up to the car to do stuff like staying in lane and judging the distance between the front of his car and the rear of the car in front. This, for a whole new generation, is "driving"... the on-board radar keeps an eye on the distances and reacts appropriately, although the judgements may not align with the comfort of risk-adverse old-fashioned manual drivers.

My car does all that and it's a fairly cheap car. (Doesn't park itself though).

On mine you can change the distance between you and the car in front on the ACC stalk by twisting it.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4089
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Nov 2020, 12:02pm

[quote="kwackers"]
My car does all that and it's a fairly cheap car. (Doesn't park itself though).

On mine you can change the distance between you and the car in front on the ACC stalk by twisting it.[/quote]

....
Pa!
Outdated! Mine does that and I don't even need to take my hands off the wheel.

Unnecessary complexity.

And addressing your further upthread.
You overlook, in your optimism, the inherent unreliability of complexity.

One defect sensor on some (or maybe one) of these vehicles and the whole system goes into paroxisms of confusion.
They rightly call it limp mode.
A doctor job. :shock: