High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Oldjohnw
Posts: 6022
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Oldjohnw » 18 Nov 2020, 12:04pm

simonineaston wrote:Rather 'orses dung than cows... how many tummies does an 'orse 'ave? Not 4 like a cow... how do they manage?? I think being a ruminant is just an excuse to have a nice lie down and eat twice the number of meals!


There's something satisfying about 1 horsepower.
John

StephenW
Posts: 158
Joined: 22 Sep 2010, 11:33am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby StephenW » 18 Nov 2020, 12:07pm

Jdsk wrote:
StephenW wrote:By "good", I mean activities where the risks to the participant are greater than the risks to other bystanders, and where the perceptions of risk of the participants are in line with the reality.

I'm not sure that you meant it quite like that... as a first approximation only the bystanders should be making decisions on risks to themselves. As printed on the back of tickets to motor sports events.

You often see statements in dangerous sports along the lines of "He knew the risk he was taking". This is rarely true in any quantitative sense. And we're learning more about cognitive biasses that get in the way.

But basically I don't think that there's any law of conservation of risk. Almost every aspect of life has become safer.

Jonathan


Yes, I probably should have said that the risks to bystanders is minimal. (Realistically it will never be zero).

There are some sources of danger that are in no way pleasurable. If these can be eliminated, that's great! In that case I would not expect to see an appetite for risk popping up somewhere else. For instance, I wouldn't expect a reduction in farming accidents to lead to an increase in motorcycling or skiing.

But when we are talking about risk-taking behaviours which the participants enjoy, maybe it's different?

Regarding "good" risky activities, if the activity feels more dangerous than it really is, that is ideal!

thirdcrank
Posts: 30856
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Nov 2020, 12:10pm

Re forecasting the social acceptance/ implementation of technology, you never can tell. It's some time now since it was forecast that the internet would render a lot of travel redundant: everybody would be working from home. That never really got going, but now it's become necessary for many. If / when we manage to deal with covid, that will change yet again but it's hard to see a return to the status quo.

The pandemic has also speeded up the move to online retail. While that will tend to reduce shopping trips, they will be replaced by delivery journeys which may broadly balance out but the latter will probably be more suitable for driverless vehicles.

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 18 Nov 2020, 12:13pm

The tailgater I generally encounter are usually,though not exclusively,young women driving four year old or more small hatchbacks with,I'm fairly sure none of the electronic features mentioned above,exceptions have been rarely WVM,and and an S class Merc less than four feet from my bumper @70+ in lane 3 on the M6 with a stream of traffic in lane 2 and in front of me in lane 3.
I find tailgating utterly bizarre at times as there's no point to it especially as more often than not I have traffic in front of me so none's going anywhere any faster
Last edited by reohn2 on 18 Nov 2020, 12:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kwackers
Posts: 15465
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2020, 12:15pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Unnecessary complexity.

Only if you don't use it.
PDQ Mobile wrote:And addressing your further upthread.
You overlook, in your optimism, the inherent unreliability of complexity.

You think people aren't complex? They never "break down"?
My friends dad back in the 80's had an heart attack driving a wagon, killed 3 people...
PDQ Mobile wrote:One defect sensor on some (or maybe one) of these vehicles and the whole system goes into paroxisms of confusion.
They rightly call it limp mode.
A doctor job. :shock:

Shame my friends dad didn't go into limp mode instead of putting all his weight on the throttle.


My IC car went into limp mode once when a sensor died
That sensor is required to allow the engine to optimally set the fuel mix - something that is one of the reasons modern engines are so clean.
One persons unnecessary complexity is everyone else's clean air. ;)

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4089
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Nov 2020, 2:27pm

^^
Kwackers
Accidents do happen and if something or someone jumps into the path of a speeding vehicle then there will be a collision.
Lorry drivers have medicals after a certain age to try to avoid the risk you speak of.Hard to see a total solution to a heart attack. Such a rare event.
I could still argue that the really astute human driver might well outperform the robot.
Certainly there are variables.
We remain a very long way from an autonomous vehicle that could be let loose in busy traffic.

On the pollution aspect. The hated diesel does not rely on an exact fuel/air "mix" as such. A normally aspirated diesel sucks as much air as it possibly can all the time. The metering of the amount of fuel is the determing factor of power output.
Good atomization of the fuel is important.
As are clean airfilters (in any IC engine).
Often overlooked.

I see plenty of newer cars, presumably with Engine Managment sensors and the like, that emit a deal of smoke.

I also see plenty of the same with only one headlight working, presumably because the bulbs or LEDs requires a masters degree in faffing aroundvto get at the damn things.
A clear case of fashion overtaking(sorry) good sense and design. It is an unnecessary hazard.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8785
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Nov 2020, 2:30pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:^^
Kwackers
Accidents do happen and if something or someone jumps into the path of a speeding vehicle then there will be a collision.
Lorry drivers have medicals after a certain age to try to avoid the risk you speak of.Hard to see a total solution to a heart attack. Such a rare event.
I could still argue that the really astute human driver might well outperform the robot.
Certainly there are variables.
We remain a very long way from an autonomous vehicle that could be let loose in busy traffic.


Cars already exist that are able to detect the awareness/wakedness of the driver. At the moment, they vibrate/display messages. No reason why they couldn't act like a Dead Man's Handle if allowed to.

ETA
Or, if from a newer generation, guide the car to a safe stopping place, or to A&E.

This isn't sci-fi.
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 18 Nov 2020, 3:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

kwackers
Posts: 15465
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2020, 2:59pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Hard to see a total solution to a heart attack.

Not at all, that's what we're discussing.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I could still argue that the really astute human driver might well outperform the robot.

You could argue that but you'd be wrong as well as missing the point.

Almost no driver is "really astute" 100% of the time and if you believe you are then you're living in some soft of make believe world.

If you're never affected by tiredness, lack of concentration, distraction, bad moods or don't suffer from the myriad of visual issues evolution has foisted upon us then you need to get your genetics read for the benefit of mankind before they're lost.
(And that's before we get started on 360 degree awareness and abilities like radar)

Everyone I know is a great driver right up to the point they're not...
Nothing is perfect, but some things are nearer that ideal.

If you want to sit through some of the videos on YouTube and explain in what way you think the ape in control of the vehicle did better than even the shoddiest AI then I'd be interested.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 4089
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Nov 2020, 5:58pm

kwackers wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Hard to see a total solution to a heart attack.

Not at all, that's what we're discussing.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I could still argue that the really astute human driver might well outperform the robot.

You could argue that but you'd be wrong as well as missing the point.

Almost no driver is "really astute" 100% of the time and if you believe you are then you're living in some soft of make believe world.

If you're never affected by tiredness, lack of concentration, distraction, bad moods or don't suffer from the myriad of visual issues evolution has foisted upon us then you need to get your genetics read for the benefit of mankind before they're lost.
(And that's before we get started on 360 degree awareness and abilities like radar)

Everyone I know is a great driver right up to the point they're not...
Nothing is perfect, but some things are nearer that ideal.

If you want to sit through some of the videos on YouTube and explain in what way you think the ape in control of the vehicle did better than even the shoddiest AI then I'd be interested.

Well I drove professionally a fair bit for many years but I am not trying to "blow my own trumpet" indeed I have studiously avoided it.

I will say however, that I once saved a child's life by firstly being astute and secondly by using a sort of intuition and anticipation.
Experience and focus is a biggy here.
And I don't think a robot would probably have had the same result.

When a child on a wide pavement, terrified by a very large, suddenly barking aggressive dog behind a gate, just runs into the road directly in front of one's vehicle, and we are talking about right in front, then only the swerve will suffice.
Throw a large trailer into the mix and one is in ad lib territory. Nothing pre programmed will cover it. IMHO
I can tell you her mother's expression was one of total gratitude. And Anglo/French relations were improved.

The ability to maintain a high level of focus and concentration over long journeys is something that comes with time and experience.
It is however perfectly possible.

I will say also say that as we debate this I have not yet seen an AI car capable of being let loose in diverse traffic conditions without a human chaperone.

You may be right that it is achievable but for now many of the weaknesses of the human driver apply to the machine.
Tiredness = sensor malfunction. Poor eye sight = darkness, rain and road filth on camera lenses.
And just a simple lack of adaptability, no intuition.
So these are also weaknesses in machines. And they are significant where lives are at stake.

Now you are the electronics and programmer man.
You have a vested interest in promoting this, as yet unachieved, brave new world (as I see it, you understand).

I am quite different a self confessed techno phobe.
I have long lived quite happily and quite safely without such complexity.
Actively preferring the simple.
And I have no vested interest.

My personal view (based on some considerable experience) is that increased complexity reduces reliability. It also costs more because it involves more equipment.
And the benefit is not proven. IMV.

I should, I suppose, also confess that I like driving. And cycling. And walking. Making my own decisions, as I do in other walks of life.
I would not say that I have never made a mistake.
I have and not only "on the road"(!) ,but the secret is to reappraise and learn- build it into the next time. So are good drivers (and cyclists) formed.

And I guess, as you suggest, controlling software can "learn" too. (Though that also involves mistakes?)
However that depends on perfect FLAWLESS input from a huge number of sources, of course.
So for now I'll pass and drive myself.
( couldn't afford a new motor anyway).

In the Tesla video, I wonder what would have happened if the sensors had somehow misread or failed to read correctly, you see. With more traffic, more complexity.
What would the "driver" have done? Would he have had time to do anything?
Watching (and fiddling with) that awful screen must be a distraction?

I just simply prefer to take the responsibility on myself I guess.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30856
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Nov 2020, 6:28pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:[ ... The ability to maintain a high level of focus and concentration over long journeys is something that comes with time and experience.
It is however perfectly possible. ....


IMO, this is one of the core requirements of good driving but it's often lacking. A member of my family in stationary traffic was shunted recently by a driver "not looking" and so colliding at normal driving speed for that road: fortunately 30mph limit. He saw the driver in his rear view as she approached and assumed she was texting. When he challenged her about that, she said she had been trying to reach a mask she had dropped on the floor, as though that mae it ok. When something similar happened to me over 50 years ago when I had stopped for pedestrians on a zebra, the driver who shunted me was messing about with a child on the front seat.

A lot of drivers seem unable to chat with passengers without eye contact.

I suspect that this is something where it's easier to programme a machine rather than to train a person.

kwackers
Posts: 15465
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2020, 6:39pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:Well I drove professionally a fair bit for many years but I am not trying to "blow my own trumpet" indeed I have studiously avoided it.

IME "professional" drivers are anything but - I've a fair bit of footage I've personally accrued of poor judgement and aggressive manoeuvres.
I'm sure that's not you, but I still remember the guy who ran into the back of my motorbike telling me it was my fault because "I'm a professional driver, I drive a bus".
PDQ Mobile wrote:I will say however, that I once saved a child's life by firstly being astute and secondly by using a sort of intuition and anticipation.
Experience and focus is a biggy here.
And I don't think a robot would probably have had the same result.

Of course you don't think that.
The thing with a robot is it's got loads of time to work out the best solution, in fact it can replay all possible scenarios, child stops, child turns, child continues, vehicle brakes, vehicle swerves, vehicle brakes and swerves etc etc.
Once it's got what it considers to be the best scenario it can work with it and if the child starts to do something different it can recalculate.
What you call experience is effectively simply muscle training. We like to think we had time to process everything before but everything we've learned about how our brains work tells us it's all post-event justification.
PDQ Mobile wrote:The ability to maintain a high level of focus and concentration over long journeys is something that comes with time and experience.
It is however perfectly possible.

Of course it is - but is it practised by everyone?
Of course not, so your point is invalid.
PDQ Mobile wrote:I will say also say that as we debate this I have not yet seen an AI car capable of being let loose in diverse traffic conditions without a human chaperone.

Ten years ago they were struggling to follow the lines in the road, now they're driving around quite happily, progress is accelerating non-linearly where do you think they'll be in another 10 years?
Buy a Tesla today and tomorrow it'll be better.
You might not like it but a Tesla makes a better driver than 90% of the people out there - are you in the top 10%?
PDQ Mobile wrote:You may be right that it is achievable but for now many of the weaknesses of the human driver apply to the machine.
Tiredness = sensor malfunction. Poor eye sight = darkness, rain and road filth on camera lenses.
And just a simple lack of adaptability, no intuition.
So these are also weaknesses in machines. And they are significant where lives are at stake.

AI knows when the sensors malfunction. Even my cheapo car will turn off auto if it can use it.
Intuition is just the generation of something from incomplete data - computers are actually excellent at that.
PDQ Mobile wrote:You have a vested interest in promoting this, as yet unachieved, brave new world (as I see it, you understand).

The only vested interest I have is a desire for a higher standard of driving (and not having to drive myself when I'm old and doddery thereby potentially saving other peoples lives because I'm an old fool who doesn't realise how crap I've become).

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Nov 2020, 6:56pm

^^ TC
I was once on the A40 outside Oxford. And joined a long and totally visible queue of rush hour traffic. And I was the last car. A glance in the mirror showed a car approaching still 5 or 600 meters distant.
It is a well known danger position. Last car.
I always watch the mioror intently and apply and release the footbrake to "flash" the brake lights. Use hazards too sometimes especially on motorways.
Anyway the car in question, in spite of my best efforts, showed no reduction in speed. And so at the last (ish) moment, I nipped forward onto the luckily available grass verge. She stopped (it was a she with female passenger) in a pall of rubber smoke about a meter behind the next car.
And she looked pretty sheepish!
And I felt pretty smug.

PDQ Mobile
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Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 18 Nov 2020, 7:01pm

^^ kwackers

Perhaps " vested interest " was overstated.
"Is a fan of" perhaps better choice .

bazzo
Posts: 204
Joined: 27 Jul 2012, 7:37am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby bazzo » 18 Nov 2020, 11:50pm

The technology is available to fit speed limiters which would stop a vehicle exceeding the speed limit. The government could introduce legislation to enforce this.

Jdsk
Posts: 6072
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 18 Nov 2020, 11:58pm

Yes, as discussed above.

So... how would you persuade them to do that?

Jonathan