High Performance Cars

[merseymouth]

Morning all, I do believe the cars of the future should have one vital piece of tech installed? An automatic "Brain Activation Unit", no override or distractions allowed!
As a Maurice the Minor lover I prefer the drum brakes on the Minor to the brakes that were on the Vauxhall Crossland that I drove last week, a horrible machine!
I upgraded Maurice's brakes from 7" fronts to 8", adding a servo to reduce pedal pressure issues for SWMBO. Stopped quite nicely, no snatching, no lack of retardation. The Crossland needed application to be limited to telepathy, over sensitive.
Biggest issue for driver these days is inattention, to many distractions. Which brings me to the Crossland again? The journey kept being disrupted by a shrill electronic noise and flashing light on the dash??? As this was a hire car we had no knowledge of what this was all about, so we stopped and waded through the handbook.
Turned out it was a "Low Fuel" warning!!!! It was 7/8ths full? Bloody distracting. Take me back to using the length of garden cane!
These issues are certainly a problem for folk like me who don't own a car but who hire them for essential use. I requested a Corsa, which I was slightly familiar with, instead I got a Rover in disguise? It was a "DOG"!
Switching the wipers on is a phaff, so many variables, my Minor had sophisticated two-speed wipers, simple 3 position switch, same with lights, 3 position switch, it did get complicated with signalling my choice of direction, well it did have both semaphores and flashing indicators. This was because modern drivers are too blind to see the orange blade sticking out, they don't even recognize hand signal, that is except the one they use too often, the two fingered "Reverse Winnie"!
So less tech please more nous! MM

[pwa]

Morning all, I do believe the cars of the future should have one vital piece of tech installed? An automatic "Brain Activation Unit", no override or distractions allowed!
As a Maurice the Minor lover I prefer the drum brakes on the Minor to the brakes that were on the Vauxhall Crossland that I drove last week, a horrible machine!
I upgraded Maurice's brakes from 7" fronts to 8", adding a servo to reduce pedal pressure issues for SWMBO. Stopped quite nicely, no snatching, no lack of retardation. The Crossland needed application to be limited to telepathy, over sensitive.
Biggest issue for driver these days is inattention, to many distractions. Which brings me to the Crossland again? The journey kept being disrupted by a shrill electronic noise and flashing light on the dash??? As this was a hire car we had no knowledge of what this was all about, so we stopped and waded through the handbook.
Turned out it was a "Low Fuel" warning!!!! It was 7/8ths full? Bloody distracting. Take me back to using the length of garden cane!
These issues are certainly a problem for folk like me who don't own a car but who hire them for essential use. I requested a Corsa, which I was slightly familiar with, instead I got a Rover in disguise? It was a "DOG"!
Switching the wipers on is a phaff, so many variables, my Minor had sophisticated two-speed wipers, simple 3 position switch, same with lights, 3 position switch, it did get complicated with signalling my choice of direction, well it did have both semaphores and flashing indicators. This was because modern drivers are too blind to see the orange blade sticking out, they don't even recognize hand signal, that is except the one they use too often, the two fingered "Reverse Winnie"!
So less tech please more nous! MM

I remember our family car being a Morris Traveller and though I remember it fondly, in many ways it was rubbish. Too easy to get into a skid when you braked in the wet (well demonstrated by my mother), too little power ascending steep hills (memories of everyone but the driver having to get out on a steep hill in North Wales), water leaking in from all sides in the rain, rust just about everywhere, oil on the garage floor, and fuel consumption was pretty high by today's standards. My memory of cars from that era is that while there was a lot less to go wrong, things were going wrong all the time. You would not be allowed to register a new car made like that today.

But I agree that simplicity is good. The difference is, I think we are going to find simplicity of use becoming a selling point, not simplicity of what is under the covers. Simplicity right down to not having to drive the thing. Not having to think about wipers at all because you don't need to see out. That will come eventually. Not in the next few years, admittedly, but one day. But the kind of mechanical simplicity you hanker after will be limited to stripped back cars like Caterhams.

You like having to remove and clean spark plugs, don't you. Go on, admit it.

[PDQ Mobile]

^^ pwa (and below pebble).

Perhaps you and (kwackers) are right that such systems will overtake human drivers.

Whether they will avoid all accidents is open to question. For not all accidents are CAUSED by motor vehicles.
I have said before (being old and less than a fan of "tech, you understand) that I don't see a brave new world of fully automated vehicles all making a sort of 100% safe "ballet" around each other and every other road hazard being ever possible.
We shall see. It is certainly not here yet.

Cost alone will be a factor for every extra system has it's price.
And if you can't achieve the goal of 100% (or 99% or 95?) safety then the comparative sums will have to be done.


^^ and pebble.
I broadly agree.
Though I have seen well known makes of vehicles become uneconomic to repair after less than around 8 years. Usually electronics that have failed.
ABS works, of course, it is now on every(?) new car.
Sensors and wiring can and do fail. Wet and salt are enemies to any electronics in wheel arches and more.

I have only driven a couple of vehicles so equipped, an early Sprinter. And a couple of hire cars. I am not aware of EVER making the system operate in earnest. (Though I deliberately tested the Sprinter on an empty wet road a couple of times and know how the pedal feels when the system "pulses")

My non ABS vehicle has well maintained brakes and stops perfectly well when required.
I am totally happy with it.

I have not claimed to be a driving "deity".
I am competent and confident, have a lot of experience, understand the physical control mechanisms (and their limitations).

So better than some I would say, but I remain self critical too, and always ask "could I have done that better" when things don't run smooth.

I understand what it is to be a child, a cyclist, a walker, an older or less able driver, a driver of large vehicles and they form part of any "day to day" interaction on the road.
I focus on the job in hand to the best of my ability at all times.

[Bonefishblues]

If automated systems avoid those accidents caused by human failings, then they will be a massive step forward. That's all.

[kwackers]

^^ pwa (and below pebble).

Perhaps you and (kwackers) are right that such systems will overtake human drivers.

Whether they will avoid all accidents is open to question. For not all accidents are CAUSED by motor vehicles.

I've never claimed they will avoid all accidents - that's just foolish, I merely claim they can outperform humans.

I'm not even convinced of your "ballet", imo the need to co-exist with other vehicles precludes that and the added expense for not a huge amount of gain makes it unlikely.
It's a thing that often bandied around by folk as a benefit but I personally think the idea is overplayed and unlikely certainly at that sort of level.

OTOH, simple systems like vehicles tailing each other on motorways, I can imagine that. Obviously as pointed out above trucks will be first, no sign of such systems on cars but it's a fairly easy system to implement, cheap and provides obvious benefits in economy and road throughput.


I spent most of my formative years (and some) looking after my cars.
I could strip and rebuild motors, weld up their rotting chassis, sort their electrics etc etc.
I stopped because once I started buying newer cars there was no point, they rarely needed any work and I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay someone else to get spanner rash.

When modern cars are scrapped it's rarely the electronics despite what folk above say. It's either usually just a sad, tired, worthless car or catastrophic mechanical failure. Snapped timing belts, gearbox failures etc etc.
Electronics are fairly cheap to replace (being easy to access plug in devices) whereas just swapping a gearbox or rebuilding an engine is not only costly in parts but requires a fair amount of time for the mechanics raising the cost considerably.

My last car (Mini) had two failures in its 15 year 150,000 mile life. Alternator @ 100,000 miles and a air sensor at 105,000.
The air sensor (about the nearest you can get to electronics that failed) cost £60, labour was about £20.
I sold it to a mechanic friend of mine, he's tidied it up and it could well last another 10 years.

In contrast I can't even begin to list the jobs I did on my original Mini, but it occupied a fair amount of my life keeping it on the road and a not insubstantial amount fixing stuff at the side of it either! Carrying a set of tools with me was a way of life back then.

[PDQ Mobile]

^^
Hmmm...

Well they still can't outperform humans yet.
Your new bus can't even read speed limit signs reliably!
And it needs to be really (like 99% or100%) reliable to justify putting it into the thing.
Otherwise having it and switching it off is a complete waste of effort and resources. IMV.
........

If the numbers of "new" Minis going "cheap" on eBay is a guide then your experience is not typical.

A friend had an 8 year old Renault that had so many ongoing diccy electrics he scrapped it.
Another had a dog of an XTrail.
The air sensor that failed was hundreds of pounds (new£800 though he got a second hand one) And it stank until he fixed it.

I could suggest you don't carry tools because you can't fix it.
Not your personal ability,you understand, just the nature of the unitized and sealed modern vehicle.

Bet you have breakdown insurance?
I on the other hand do not.

I have a few simple spares (hoses, belts and bulbs etc) and a box of simple tools.
And a proper spare wheel (it fits the trailer too so only need one!).

Suits me ok.
We're all different.

[[XAP]Bob]

I focus on the job in hand to the best of my ability at all times.

Yet you refuse to use systems which will assist you in the event that either:
- Your concentration fails for a moment (whether that's because of a wasp flying in through the window and down your throat, a spaceship landing in the field next to you, the heating needing adjustment, younger passengers demanding attention)
- You ability is insufficient to deal with something unexpected (a chunk of masonry falling off a bridge, another vehicle having a tyre failure next to you, a diesel spill across the carriageway).

Neither of those are criticisms of your driving, but you are human - and one of the ever present characteristics of the human condition is the ability to fail.

I can count the number of times ABS has helped me on one hand, and can count just one time when it has actively hindered me.
Interestingly all the times ABS has helped were when I was a much younger driver, and I also had a couple of occasions where cadence braking was employed to good effect, and one where I made the conscious decision to leave the passenger side front wheel locked (gravel at the edge of a Cornish lane in the face of a fast approaching lorry).
The time it actively hindered me was much more recent, in snow, in a Citroen C5. Front wheel drive vehicle, coming home from work because it had started snowing. Everyone on the dual carriageway and motorway were behaving well, no erratic driving, everyone doing about 40-50, enough traffic to keep a clear path. The slip road was somewhat different, fresh snow. So when I feathered the brakes the wheels locked, and were released to roll over the snow before locking again. In a normal car I'd have used the handbrake to lock the rear wheels, gathering a wedge of snow to slow me down - but the C5 has the handbrake on the front wheels, so that wasn't an option.
I spotted a gap in the traffic coming round the roundabout, and went through the red light, into the gap, and onto clear tarmac again.


Had I been driving a Tesla at the time... Then the data on that incident would have been sent back to Tesla, and they would have had the opportunity to add the "In snow it's worth letting the rear wheels lock to get some traction" to autopilot for every Tesla on the road. And it would have done that irrespective of whether or not AP was active at the time (because when inactive AP is still running, and comparing what it would have done with what the driver actually did).

That is what simplicity looks like - get in the car, tell it where I am going.
I am relatively close to that already - I get in, tell it where I'm going and take it to the motorway. Then I let the car do most of the work on the motorway and pick up again for any services we might stop at or as we leave the motorway. I'm still there, I'm still in charge, but the cognitive load is much lower, which actually means that my overall awareness is back to at least the same level as it was before I became disabled. If that can be translated to other motorists then it will be a net improvement in road awareness.

[Pebble]

I doubt autonomous cars will ever be better than a good driver who is on the ball, but certainly an autonomous car will be better than someone who has developed that 1000 yard stare on the motorway.

The autonomous driver aids would be probably at their best if the driver did not know they existed, but I suspect adaptive cruise, lane assist, collision avoidance and automatic braking will lead many drivers into a false sense of security giving them a greater likelihood to play with the phone or just fiddle with the ever increasing amount of onboard toys. (wifes car has 9 dash displays with 4 differant moods, 36 ways of displaying your speed and all adjustable whilst driving, and that is in addition to the even larger infotainment display system, heck you need to be a trained astronaught or something to adjust the heating) I wonder if I'm safer in my old van where I need never take my eyes off the road.

[kwackers]

^^
Hmmm...

Well they still can't outperform humans yet.

Given they already demonstrate a order of magnitude of improvement in KSI's I'm curious how you work that out?

^^
Your new bus can't even read speed limit signs reliably!

I'm not sure how many times I have to say this before it sinks in.
My "bus" isn't self driving. It never made any pretention to being so.
Its computer isn't even remotely the same as the stuff fitted (and required) for vehicles that are.
It has a single camera, a Tesla has something like seven (and better cameras to boot).

^^
And it needs to be really (like 99% or100%) reliable to justify putting it into the thing.
Otherwise having it and switching it off is a complete waste of effort and resources. IMV.

Can we apply the same logic to people?
If so then why do we let them in the drivers seat? Reliability, ability to read road signs, ability to make good decisions isn't great.

If the numbers of "new" Minis going "cheap" on eBay is a guide then your experience is not typical.

My quick look on eBay suggests they're no worse (and in some cases better) in terms of depreciation than most other cars.

A friend had an 8 year old Renault that had so many ongoing diccy electrics he scrapped it.
Another had a dog of an XTrail.
The air sensor that failed was hundreds of pounds (new£800 though he got a second hand one) And it stank until he fixed it.

All cars have the odd lemon, I know of plenty of Renaults running way past 8 years.
A quick google suggests your "£800" sensor is actually more like £50 btw.

I could suggest you don't carry tools because you can't fix it.
Not your personal ability,you understand, just the nature of the unitized and sealed modern vehicle.

Nope, I don't carry them because there's no need. Last car that actually stopped with me in it at the side of a road (other than for a puncture) was a late 70's Opal Manta (Cavalier). Blocked carb from crap in the fuel iirc. Twin port Weber, I remember stripping it and finding some crap blocking the float valve.

Bet you have breakdown insurance?

Most new cars come with free breakdown insurance, plus since my missus ranks up the miles on her own I'd be happier if she had it (I'm not convinced she could change a wheel on her own).

I on the other hand do not.

Of course you don't, don't need it do you? Right up until the point you do...

Don't get me wrong if I was on my tod and shelling out for it I wouldn't bother either. If the worst came to the worst I'd simply pay for recovery, cheaper in the long run.

[reohn2]

Morning all, I do believe the cars of the future should have one vital piece of tech installed? An automatic "Brain Activation Unit", no override or distractions allowed!
As a Maurice the Minor lover I prefer the drum brakes on the Minor to the brakes that were on the Vauxhall Crossland that I drove last week, a horrible machine!
I upgraded Maurice's brakes from 7" fronts to 8", adding a servo to reduce pedal pressure issues for SWMBO. Stopped quite nicely, no snatching, no lack of retardation. The Crossland needed application to be limited to telepathy, over sensitive.
Biggest issue for driver these days is inattention, to many distractions. Which brings me to the Crossland again? The journey kept being disrupted by a shrill electronic noise and flashing light on the dash??? As this was a hire car we had no knowledge of what this was all about, so we stopped and waded through the handbook.
Turned out it was a "Low Fuel" warning!!!! It was 7/8ths full? Bloody distracting. Take me back to using the length of garden cane!
These issues are certainly a problem for folk like me who don't own a car but who hire them for essential use. I requested a Corsa, which I was slightly familiar with, instead I got a Rover in disguise? It was a "DOG"!
Switching the wipers on is a phaff, so many variables, my Minor had sophisticated two-speed wipers, simple 3 position switch, same with lights, 3 position switch, it did get complicated with signalling my choice of direction, well it did have both semaphores and flashing indicators. This was because modern drivers are too blind to see the orange blade sticking out, they don't even recognize hand signal, that is except the one they use too often, the two fingered "Reverse Winnie"!
So less tech please more nous! MM

You're living in a bygone motoring era that no longer exists other than for classic car drivers.
If you owned a modern car once you familiarised yourself with it's controls you'd never go back to a Moggie or any other car of it's era,other than for a retro rose tinted specs trip which I'm sure would illustrate the point.

That said I agree that there's too many distractions both within and outside the car these days,though not enough speed limit warnings* IMO.
It's far to easy to pick up a phone when it alerts it's owner of the latest FB posting and in unfamiliar cities the signage can be mind boggling at times,which isn't helped by other impatient drivers familiar with the road layout.I find myself constantly asking myself "what's the speed limit on this road"* such is the poor speed limit signage or foliage obscured roundels.
As a result on roads with street lighting evident I default to 30mph only to find half a mile along there's a solitary small 40 roundel tucked behind a bush somewhere.
My experience of driving in France,no one's left in doubt as to the speed limit with larger and more frequent signage especially in built up areas with 50km zones.

[kwackers]

You're living in a bygone motoring era that no longer exists other than for classic car drivers.

I'm grateful that now I've entered my 60's I can still appreciate new and modern things and even get excited by them!
I pity folk who are cruelly inflicted by age related conservatism and a growing desire for the past, how scary the modern world must look to them, how unfriendly...

[reohn2]

You're living in a bygone motoring era that no longer exists other than for classic car drivers.

I'm grateful that now I've entered my 60's I can still appreciate new and modern things and even get excited by them!
I pity folk who are cruelly inflicted by age related conservatism and a growing desire for the past, how scary the modern world must look to them, how unfriendly...

Agreed,though I can sometimes get confused by the plethora of features on modern vehicles.
After a loooonnnnggggg lay off from motorcycling I've just bought a Honda CB500X,I'm still trying to figure out all the features of the dashboard and haven't had the courage to see if the ABS works well

[kwackers]

Agreed,though I do sometimes get confused by the plethora of features on modern vehicles.
After a loooonnnnggggg lay off from motorcycling I've just bought a Honda CB500X,I'm still trying to figure out all the features of the dashboard and haven't had the courage to see if the ABS works well

Seems weird that Honda still use "CB" to prefix their models, when someone says "CB500" I instantly think back to the 70's and an underpowered, poor handling, unfaired twin best suited for commuting.
Pretty sure that's not what they are these days though.

My motorbike is quite elderly now, a 2001 Kawasaki ZX12.
I put a new battery in it at the beginning of lockdown with the intention of using it but didn't get around to it.

Haven't seen a modern bikes dash, mine just has a couple of clocks and a small LCD panel which gives the trip meters, fuel etc (and no ABS either).

My next bike (should I buy one) is likely to be electric I think.

[PDQ Mobile]

You're living in a bygone motoring era that no longer exists other than for classic car drivers.

I'm grateful that now I've entered my 60's I can still appreciate new and modern things and even get excited by them!
I pity folk who are cruelly inflicted by age related conservatism and a growing desire for the past, how scary the modern world must look to them, how unfriendly...

If that is directed towards me, then I reckon it's a tad unfair.
I have merely pointed out that not all modern gizmos are worth their installing.
This obsession with the latest is ok if it turns you on but there is something still to be said for keeping measure in the area of practicality.

So I don't want to get excited JUST because it's new and modern.
It needs more substance than just that.

It's increasingly the same with bikes. A tragedy for the simple and functional - and thus reliable machine.

So why have a vehicle based speed sign recognizing system, that doesn't work?
It's camera based. You can say ah well it's cheap, ah well its only one, not seven, but the fact is it doesn't work. So its crap.


Rain activated wipers, I just can't see the point. Another sensor to fail. Hopefully there's a manual override but if so then why not just switch the blooming things on?
A simple three setting switch, intermittent, normal and fast, I find totally adequate.

This Tesla with its seven cameras, how does it manage to keep them all clean in foul road conditions?
If they are dirty function is surely compromised?
I cannot see how automatic vehicle distancing will ever work.
As one gets closer to another they move away, but it can't cos there's another already close on the other side. A warning buzzer then sounds? and brakes are applied?
And the ripple goes back though the traffic stretching all along the automated motorway to hell.

The modern touch screen operating all those functions and all those options, noted by "pebble".
Hard to operate without looking at the thing. There has been, on here, so much condemnation of drivers using phones, rightly, but never a mention of this.
....
pwa's experience of the Minor is not mine.
The basic design is old of course.
The brakes perhaps the most deserving of criticism but they aren't really fast cars.
Yet even today, away from motorways, the little thing (and it is small by today's standards) holds its own.
Steering is light and positive just as light as a modern servo job really, certainly underway.
Gears ditto -a delight really.
40 plus mpg was attainable in good fettle.
And a dip switch under the left foot.
Dance of the dippers!

No getting out on hills in my experience. In fact rear wheel drive is often superior for climbing steep hills.
I have pulled quite a hefty Ivor Williams trailer across S Britain and into Wales a couple of times with no problems, it actually made quite a good towcar, I was surprised.
It will outperform my FWD car in some respects.
The FWD will get stuck with a heavy trailer on really steep poor surfaces wheels spinning. The little Minor just crawls on up, weight on the driving wheels and low first gear, in spite of having half the power.

It is profoundly a case of function over fashion!

[reohn2]

Agreed,though I do sometimes get confused by the plethora of features on modern vehicles.
After a loooonnnnggggg lay off from motorcycling I've just bought a Honda CB500X,I'm still trying to figure out all the features of the dashboard and haven't had the courage to see if the ABS works well

Seems weird that Honda still use "CB" to prefix their models, when someone says "CB500" I instantly think back to the 70's and an underpowered, poor handling, unfaired twin best suited for commuting.
Pretty sure that's not what they are these days though.

My motorbike is quite elderly now, a 2001 Kawasaki ZX12.
I put a new battery in it at the beginning of lockdown with the intention of using it but didn't get around to it.

Haven't seen a modern bikes dash, mine just has a couple of clocks and a small LCD panel which gives the trip meters, fuel etc (and no ABS either).

My next bike (should I buy one) is likely to be electric I think.

The latest models are a bit more powerful,though not a lot,47bhp watercooled twin with a nice spread of power across the rev range.The CB500X is quite light and handles well too,it's plenty powerful enough for what I'll to use it for.
The dash is a square digital one about the size of a smartphone with speed(changable bteween MPH to KM),gear indicator,revcounter,fuel and temp gauges,clock odometer,A and B trip,mpg,ride time,and how many miles to reserve.
TBH I'd prefer analogy rev and speedo,but that's probably just my rose tinted specs
When I look at some of the large modern M/Cs I think the worlds's gone mad,though some of the features on higher end machines are awesome,auto gearboxes,traction control,ABS,self cancelling indicators,etc,etc.