High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 19 Nov 2020, 7:15am

bazzo wrote:The technology is available to fit speed limiters which would stop a vehicle exceeding the speed limit. The government could introduce legislation to enforce this.

My cheap 'n cheerful car has that.

It has 3 modes, "off", "warning", "hard limit".

Mine is off.
IME it's often wrong, it can't tell the difference between 60 & 70 on a national speed limit and it works by reading road signs.
Because it reads road signs and it's a fairly cheap car with only a single camera it can miss them, or pick up one that wasn't intended for it (including the occasional one stuck to the back of another vehicle! 60 in a 30? But the van said I could! :lol: ).

I also don't like it because it can be intrusive just when you don't want it to be.
Overtaking on fast A roads for example, something best done quickly and the last thing I want is to be overtaking an artic and suddenly the car stops accelerating.
(I dislike the limiter on e-bikes for the same reason).

These issues can all be worked around of course but personally I'm far more in favour of an insurance black box.

Most poor driving I see is well within the speed limit; aggressive acceleration, braking, cornering - a black box can take all of that into account because usually you find that if someone is an aggressive driver all of the numbers are right up even if they're not speeding.

(I'll add a bit of bias here - I have designed hardware and written software for black boxes in the past)

thirdcrank
Posts: 30026
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Nov 2020, 8:51am

On the odd occasion I've driven a tranny van with a speed limiter fitted, I've quickly learned to live with it. Not a sophisticated one that recognised different limits, but one intended to stop 70+ driving. Not something I would do anyway, but the cut-off was at an indicated 67 which the GPS Satnav measured as even lower.

I'm unimpressed by "accelerating out of trouble" arguments: avoid trouble in the first place.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 19 Nov 2020, 9:02am

kwackers wrote:
bazzo wrote:The technology is available to fit speed limiters which would stop a vehicle exceeding the speed limit. The government could introduce legislation to enforce this.

My cheap 'n cheerful car has that.

It has 3 modes, "off", "warning", "hard limit".

Mine is off.
IME it's often wrong, it can't tell the difference between 60 & 70 on a national speed limit and it works by reading road signs.
Because it reads road signs and it's a fairly cheap car with only a single camera it can miss them, or pick up one that wasn't intended for it (including the occasional one stuck to the back of another vehicle! 60 in a 30? But the van said I could! :lol: ).

I also don't like it because it can be intrusive just when you don't want it to be.
Overtaking on fast A roads for example, something best done quickly and the last thing I want is to be overtaking an artic and suddenly the car stops accelerating.
(I dislike the limiter on e-bikes for the same reason).

These issues can all be worked around of course but personally I'm far more in favour of an insurance black box.

Most poor driving I see is well within the speed limit; aggressive acceleration, braking, cornering - a black box can take all of that into account because usually you find that if someone is an aggressive driver all of the numbers are right up even if they're not speeding.

(I'll add a bit of bias here - I have designed hardware and written software for black boxes in the past)

It is an astonishing litany of shortcomings from one who has been so passionately writing in the the defence of EVs and full automation.

Yet you now state, "it is often wrong" which is exactly what I have been suggesting.

The cutting off of power at crucial times, the non or incorrect recognition of road signs.

All because it's "cheap". (Which it isn't of course.)
These are very serious shortcomings.
Potentially fatal ones.

The fully autonomous vehicle (of some future nirvana) needs much much better than this.


It is my full expectation that a top of the range Tesla (how much?) will also have similar issues under certain circumstances.
Basically because its a "stupid" machine.
It lacks insight, among other things.

Who would be culpable for damage, or worse, so caused? At least human error usually has a clear perpetrator.
"The car did it Gov, you must sue the car"!

And you DO have a vested interest, Kwackers!
Writing software to try to overcome the shortcomings!!

"Old and not so stinky's" future is secured.

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 19 Nov 2020, 9:27am

PDQ Mobile wrote:It is an astonishing litany of shortcomings from one who has been so passionately writing in the the defence of EVs and full automation.

Is it? Really?

It's about par for the course for a single camera 'cheap' solution.
(Works great for lane keeping though).

PDQ Mobile wrote:Yet you now state, "it is often wrong" which is exactly what I have been suggesting.

If you want to confuse a sophisticated self driving system with what effectively is a webcam stuck to a screen then I can see why such systems give you such big problems.


PDQ Mobile wrote:All because it's "cheap". (Which it isn't of course.)

Yes it is.

PDQ Mobile wrote:It is my full expectation that a top of the range Tesla (how much?) will also have similar issues under certain circumstances.

No it won't.

You really need to understand the difference between the systems used in a self driving car and the systems stuck into a cheap vehicle.
It's like saying "editing photos on my old Nokia is rubbish therefore computers are rubbish at editing photos".

I think you're being overly keen to jump to conclusions that support your case even when they're wrong.
Cognitive bias? Just a bit...


The compute power and training given to a Tesla is orders of magnitude above what you're using right now for your home PC.
In contrast the computer in my car is basically a iPad. The brain of a flea compared to that of a cat.
Last edited by kwackers on 19 Nov 2020, 9:30am, edited 1 time in total.

Pebble
Posts: 342
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Pebble » 19 Nov 2020, 9:29am

kwackers wrote:
bazzo wrote:The technology is available to fit speed limiters which would stop a vehicle exceeding the speed limit. The government could introduce legislation to enforce this.

My cheap 'n cheerful car has that.

It has 3 modes, "off", "warning", "hard limit".

Mine is off.
IME it's often wrong, it can't tell the difference between 60 & 70 on a national speed limit and it works by reading road signs.
Because it reads road signs and it's a fairly cheap car with only a single camera it can miss them, or pick up one that wasn't intended for it (including the occasional one stuck to the back of another vehicle! 60 in a 30? But the van said I could! :lol: ).

I also don't like it because it can be intrusive just when you don't want it to be.
Overtaking on fast A roads for example, something best done quickly and the last thing I want is to be overtaking an artic and suddenly the car stops accelerating.
(I dislike the limiter on e-bikes for the same reason).

These issues can all be worked around of course but personally I'm far more in favour of an insurance black box.

Most poor driving I see is well within the speed limit; aggressive acceleration, braking, cornering - a black box can take all of that into account because usually you find that if someone is an aggressive driver all of the numbers are right up even if they're not speeding.

(I'll add a bit of bias here - I have designed hardware and written software for black boxes in the past)

Our car is far from cheap & cheerful and its speed sign recognition feature is just a joke, any large blue object and it defaults to 70, even had a 70 in the hospital car car a few weeks back. And since the introduction of 20 mph for all built up areas it is now deeply confused, it can only go to 30 after a 20, so NSL sign it now reads as 30.

Not sure about full on speed limiters as per HGVs for cars, we would soon have the equivalent of elephant racing with one car trying to pass another with 0.5mph advantage, and I'm almost sure idiots would hang people out who were overtaking on purpose (speed up to the limit when they were half way past)

Completely agree with the black box. I would take it further and insist all cars had a dash cam with at least the last hours worth of driving recorded. I have a dash cam and it always has the last 4 hours for anyone to look at, hopefully if I ever did make a dreadful mistake the prosecution would at least have to conclude that my typical driving is careful and considerate. And since I mostly drive a white van it would help dismiss the obvious stereotype.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30026
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Nov 2020, 9:41am

In spite of my doubts about forecasting technology, I cannot see the future of speed regulation in driverless cars being dependent on signs intended for drivers. If speed limits persist in this brave new world then they will surely be recognised and monitored by GPS or something similar. I could imagine a system which tailored traffic speeds to current conditions and circumstances eg near schools turning out on a dark November afternoon = traffic reduced to a crawl.

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 19 Nov 2020, 9:45am

thirdcrank wrote:In spite of my doubts about forecasting technology, I cannot see the future of speed regulation in driverless cars being dependent on signs intended for drivers. If speed limits persist in this brave new world then they will surely be recognised and monitored by GPS or something similar. I could imagine a system which tailored traffic speeds to current conditions and circumstances eg near schools turning out on a dark November afternoon = traffic reduced to a crawl.

And that's the point really.
Hi tech systems use multiple sources, multiple cameras to spot signs, GPS, and even road layout (street lights etc).

Cheap and cheerful systems (like my car) which simply 'nod' to having the feature make use of a webcam in the windscreen.
Works great for keeping the car in lane but there's a limit to how good it is at spotting stuff - that's too processor intensive for the low power computing they have in them.

Obviously one or two iterations down the line, compute power goes up, prices fall and the sophisticated systems will dribble down to all.

Pebble
Posts: 342
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Pebble » 19 Nov 2020, 10:20am

Jdsk wrote:
Pebble wrote:Having recently acquired a state of the art high tech car with all manner of driver aids, I'm far from impressed, the autonomous anti collision braking system goes off unexpectedly for no reason, the autonomous parking feature can't find anywhere to park in a near empty car park, and even the speed sign recognition feature fails more often than not, the new 20mph limit has it totally bamboozled.

What happens when the automatic braking activates... does it bring the car to a halt? Does it tell you why it thinks it did it?

I don't know that there was a production car sold in the UK that was claimed to be able to find a parking place... what is it, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Mostly it just cuts the power and beeps to inform me of a possible hazard, but occasionally it will apply some braking, it has not as yet done an emergency stop as in what happened to a neighbour when his car suddenly braked hard to a stop in front of a cattle grid. There is no information as to why, but we do have a dash cam so I can review that, I am yet to see a reason.

The car does not drive itself round a car park, you press a button and it searches for a spot as you drive. But it is not very good at finding spaces in a emptyish car park, it needs many already parked cars and it likes to squeeze in between two. If there is 2 or 3 spaces together it will parallel park across the 2 or 3 slots. It can certainly park very accurately but it is an embarrassing show of poor technique, it will go from full lock to full lock with the car stationary, go back and forward too many times and take too long, and if you don't keep your hands back from the steering wheel it would likely dislocate your thumbs. Its called 'active park assist' or something and its a merc.

tim-b
Posts: 1638
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby tim-b » 19 Nov 2020, 11:54am

Hi
But it is not very good at finding spaces in a emptyish car park, it needs many already parked cars and it likes to squeeze in between two...snip

I suspect that it's an aid to parallel parking in a minimal space, which it can do effectively. Show it anything else and it'll be confused about where you want to park (and why you need help :) )
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

tim-b
Posts: 1638
Joined: 10 Oct 2009, 8:20am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby tim-b » 19 Nov 2020, 11:59am

Hi
...what happened to a neighbour when his car suddenly braked hard to a stop in front of a cattle grid...snip

Possibly a radar system and the grid upset the doppler? Normally the systems are very good and are getting better
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

Jdsk
Posts: 3777
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 19 Nov 2020, 12:17pm

Thanks x2, Pebbles. It's very helpful to hear individual experiences when the technology is changing so quickly.

Jonathan

Oldjohnw
Posts: 5293
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Oldjohnw » 19 Nov 2020, 2:58pm

My Golf (with adaptive cruise control) has a couple of times braked hard. Once on a motorway when someone cut in. Another time - and I believe this only happens when driving under 10mph - on a corner it 'saw' a tree and braked. It won't find a parking space but can get me into one I have located.

It has a speed restrictor which I never use because sometimes you need to accelerate. The cruise control works well: set it at whatever speed and it brakes and accelerates as required but the override is instant if needed.
John

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3636
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bmblbzzz » 20 Nov 2020, 7:15pm

simonineaston wrote:Personally, I think we should sweep it all away and start again - but keep cycles, obs.. And cheese - and beer, and maybe wine, I guess - oh and bread. And music. Vegetarian diet, as in the thali. Nothing else... and analgesics. That's it.

Thali with cheese, beer and wine? Hmmm....

User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 3788
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby simonineaston » 20 Nov 2020, 7:25pm

I guess I hadn't thought it through properly. I'm coming down on the side of yeast, I think - and cricket... in fact, I'm now starting to think I might base my new world order on cricket as a theme. That is, we'll keep all the nations that play first class cricket and their cuisines, obs and then junk all the rest. I'm thinking that could work! :-)
byyeee,
SiE

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3636
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bmblbzzz » 20 Nov 2020, 9:27pm

An Anglo-Austro-Kiwi-Indo-Caribbean-Saffy fusion type cuisine? It has possibilities, that's sure!