High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
fastpedaller
Posts: 2670
Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby fastpedaller » 21 Nov 2020, 11:00am

kwackers wrote:
These issues can all be worked around of course but personally I'm far more in favour of an insurance black box.

Most poor driving I see is well within the speed limit; aggressive acceleration, braking, cornering - a black box can take all of that into account because usually you find that if someone is an aggressive driver all of the numbers are right up even if they're not speeding.

(I'll add a bit of bias here - I have designed hardware and written software for black boxes in the past)


I don't disagree with you, however, tech isn't always perfect.......
When our Daughter first started driving we had a black box for insurance - no problem, and it was quite interesting (especially for our Daughter) to look at the start and try and get the best safety score. One day I was driving, and the stats showed a lower score for cornering which occurred when we were going round and round the multi-story car park :lol:

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8447
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Nov 2020, 11:04am

Well aware I may be reinforcing prejudices, this is too good not to share :D

https://youtu.be/x4fdUx6d4QM

Jdsk
Posts: 3772
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 21 Nov 2020, 11:06am

kwackers wrote:You really need to understand the difference between the systems used in a self driving car and the systems stuck into a cheap vehicle.
It's like saying "editing photos on my old Nokia is rubbish therefore computers are rubbish at editing photos".

Is everyone familiar with the current state of Tesla Autopilot? I'm happy to post links to videos if needed.

Jonathan

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3844
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 11:43am

Bonefishblues wrote:Well aware I may be reinforcing prejudices, this is too good not to share :D

https://youtu.be/x4fdUx6d4QM


Me?
Predudice?
Certainly not. :shock: :wink:

I just don't think the reliability of such systems is yet of an order where we can let them loose without a chaperone.
And what's more, I don't think they ever will be.

I also prefer to drive myself - I confess.

But then I can park without any issue whatsoever.
So why do I need all that sensor gimmick. It just adds wieght and complexity.

And I reverse long distances with or without trailers. It something we have to do on a daily basis, you understand.
A tourist once commented , "you reverse down here faster than we drive"! :shock:

I don't want a touchscreen, a lane controller, a distance warning jobby, automatic dipping, (heaven forbid! how would I let the, oh so common, blinding, undipped, xenon futuristic beast coming the other way in the rural dark know he was blinding me? :twisted: ).

I just want simple, reliable, reasonably quiet and comfortable, and economical.
Too much to ask?

thirdcrank
Posts: 30025
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 21 Nov 2020, 12:56pm

Reversing

106. No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... n/106/made

kwackers
Posts: 15019
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 1:07pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I just want simple, reliable, reasonably quiet and comfortable, and economical.
Too much to ask?

What about safe?
A million people killed every year by cars - don't you think we should reduce that number?

Doesn't matter how good you actually are, the average driver isn't - they merely believe themselves to be so.

kwackers
Posts: 15019
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 1:10pm

fastpedaller wrote:I don't disagree with you, however, tech isn't always perfect.......
When our Daughter first started driving we had a black box for insurance - no problem, and it was quite interesting (especially for our Daughter) to look at the start and try and get the best safety score. One day I was driving, and the stats showed a lower score for cornering which occurred when we were going round and round the multi-story car park :lol:

Nothing is perfect.

The question we should always ask is "is it better than the alternative?"
Too many things get dismissed because they're not perfect whilst still being better.

kwackers
Posts: 15019
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 1:17pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Well aware I may be reinforcing prejudices, this is too good not to share :D

https://youtu.be/x4fdUx6d4QM

What's even funnier is that somebody forgot to release the steering lock.

I think this is even funnier, £90k's worth of Porche driven by a human...


Bonefishblues
Posts: 8447
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Nov 2020, 3:09pm

kwackers wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I don't disagree with you, however, tech isn't always perfect.......
When our Daughter first started driving we had a black box for insurance - no problem, and it was quite interesting (especially for our Daughter) to look at the start and try and get the best safety score. One day I was driving, and the stats showed a lower score for cornering which occurred when we were going round and round the multi-story car park :lol:

Nothing is perfect.

The question we should always ask is "is it better than the alternative?"
Too many things get dismissed because they're not perfect whilst still being better.

It's a bit of a Forum Motto...

pwa
Posts: 13247
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby pwa » 21 Nov 2020, 3:55pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Reversing

106. No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... n/106/made

Few people reverse without necessity. I have done it many times when driving large vehicles with trailers, and it is always because driving in forwards would require later reversing out onto a road. The rule of thumb, for me, is don't reverse more than you need to. But if you need to, you need to.

One big step forward technology wise is the rear view camera. I thought they were an unnecessary gimmick when they first came out. Now, I wouldn't by a vehicle without one. In a car they make reversing more accurate. In a van or a lorry they are potentially a life saver.

kwackers
Posts: 15019
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 21 Nov 2020, 4:14pm

pwa wrote:One big step forward technology wise is the rear view camera. I thought they were an unnecessary gimmick when they first came out. Now, I wouldn't by a vehicle without one. In a car they make reversing more accurate. In a van or a lorry they are potentially a life saver.

My new car is the first I've ever had with one and I'd agree (I'm also a fan of the cross traffic radar when reversing).

In the clip I posted above the Porche driver almost certainly selected 'fwd' when they thought they'd put it in reverse and then panicked when it all went pear shaped.
For me that wouldn't have happened, I put the car in reverse check the mirrors and then check the camera - no camera no move.
(The Porche has a reversing camera though).

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3844
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 5:23pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Reversing

106. No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle backwards on a road further than may be requisite for the safety or reasonable convenience of the occupants of the vehicle or other traffic, unless it is a road roller or is engaged in the construction, maintenance or repair of the road.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/198 ... n/106/made


I hope you are not insinuating that I am breaking the law. If you are it is misplaced, unfair and prejudicial.

The nature of these very narrow lanes with passing places is such that long reversing is sometimes necessary.
I might add to that a great many urban drivers show particularly poor reversing skills ("in London we only go forwards and upwards!!") and therefore reversing quite long distance here becomes second nature.

It's a good skill to acquire and keep honed. Useful in other situations.

So Tesla's eat your heart out! Good job they can't pull trailers!!

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3844
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 21 Nov 2020, 5:24pm

kwackers wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:I just want simple, reliable, reasonably quiet and comfortable, and economical.
Too much to ask?

What about safe?
A million people killed every year by cars - don't you think we should reduce that number?

Doesn't matter how good you actually are, the average driver isn't - they merely believe themselves to be so.


And you think full automation is the solution.
And I don't.

It may be that such systems can be made to work in the future,(although I personally doubt it) but they aren't here yet.

So it remains a dream and something for you to simplistically write and attack my viewpoint but doesn't translate into the real and complex world.

This million (I'll take your word) - in rural Africa, India, Asia, these people can hardly afford more than the basic necessities, the idea that they will all soon be in fully automated and therefore safe vehicles is absurd.

You have stated that your own new hi-tech buggy has serious shortcomings in regard of reliability of its "safety features.
All of India in Teslas-, its a joke.

Additionally a great many modern vehicles already have "safety features" UBS is ubiquitous.
Yet your much maligned Morris Minor had only reasonable brakes. What happened? Drivers of the same left bigger spaces.
Over-reliance on UBS and the like has probably resulted in smaller inter vehicle spaces.
It sometimes doesn't prevent what leaving a bigger space would achieve. IMHO.

So for the moment and foreseeable future we will have to put up with fallible people.

Though I have more respect for a majority of drivers than you perhaps.

More could be done with better education and training, for sure.

However yesterday and today, out on the bike (wet, miserable, slippery, visibility somewhat compromised) ,I found all drivers without exception were patient and gave me loads of space.

Jdsk
Posts: 3772
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 21 Nov 2020, 5:37pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:And you think full automation is the solution.
And I don't.
It may be that such systems can be made to work in the future,(although I personally doubt it) but they aren't here yet.

I don't think that full automation is the solution. I do think that there will be a time when extensive automation will make motor vehicles safer for other road users than human drivers without assistance. (And I suspect that we may have already reached it, but the studies haven't been done.) And it's achievable.

PDQ Mobile wrote:Yet your much maligned Morris Minor had only reasonable brakes. What happened? Drivers of the same left bigger spaces.

One of the things that happened was much higher rates of "accidents", deaths and injuries.

PDQ Mobile wrote:And you think full automation is the solution.
More could be done with better education and training, for sure.

The evidence of efficacy is good for GDL but not for driver education. But even where the evidence is good you have to take feasibility into account. I think that GDL is achievable.

But most importantly the required interventions can be synergistic. We don't have to set one against another.

Jonathan

reohn2
Posts: 40121
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 21 Nov 2020, 6:00pm

kwackers wrote:Nothing is perfect.

The question we should always ask is "is it better than the alternative?"
Too many things get dismissed because they're not perfect whilst still being better.

IMHO this is a sensible and scientific approach to safe travel,if something's better than what we now have ia; the human,aka monkey driving,then that should be the replacement for it until something better is comes along.
Everything is in flux,especially in a modern and increasingly technical world where people simply don't wish to endure(?) the tedium of their journey rather than enjoy the process of it,to rely on a good and reliable alternative is an answer.
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