High Performance Cars

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2020, 3:12pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:If that is directed towards me, then I reckon it's a tad unfair.

It was more of a general observation, not just of you but of folk I know that I went to school with and others on this forum (and other forums too).
There's a general retreat from the world as we age, I know I do it - just not as fast as others.
PDQ Mobile wrote:I have merely pointed out that not all modern gizmos are worth their installing.
This obsession with the latest is ok if it turns you on but there is something still to be said for keeping measure in the area of practicality.

I agree, but your observations aren't in line with mine - but then I use "modern technology" all the time whereas it sounds as if you merely poke at a switch from time to time and proclaim it "unfit for purpose".

PDQ Mobile wrote:So why have a vehicle based speed sign recognizing system, that doesn't work?
It's camera based. You can say ah well it's cheap, ah well its only one, not seven, but the fact is it doesn't work. So its crap.

The speed detection on my car IS crap, I don't deny it.
However you then used that fact to suggest it's crap on every other car and that simply isn't the case.
You can't take a single example and extrapolate it to suit your argument.

As I've also said though the single camera does a sterling job of lane keeping and various other functions so it's not all bad.


PDQ Mobile wrote:Rain activated wipers, I just can't see the point. Another sensor to fail. Hopefully there's a manual override but if so then why not just switch the blooming things on?
A simple three setting switch, intermittent, normal and fast, I find totally adequate.

Some folk don't. I use them because they work well enough. I particularly like that when rain is intermittent I'm not forever manually poking at the switch.
And yes, there is a manual override.
(Same with the automatic headlights, I find they work well enough to not bother overriding them - with the exception of cyclists who can't be bothered fitting lights or pedestrians for whom I will override them).

PDQ Mobile wrote:This Tesla with its seven cameras, how does it manage to keep them all clean in foul road conditions?
If they are dirty function is surely compromised?

We can be pretty sure they've thought of that...
Turns out there are eight, four are mounted behind the windscreen so presumably get cleaned with that, 2 are mounted at the back and two rear facing ones on the sides.
There are also multiple radar units and 12 ultrasonic sensors.
If the cameras are blocked then the automation is turned off - even my cheap car does that.

360 degree vision, radar and all round close up object detection. How many eyes do people have again?

PDQ Mobile wrote:I cannot see how automatic vehicle distancing will ever work.
As one gets closer to another they move away, but it can't cos there's another already close on the other side. A warning buzzer then sounds? and brakes are applied?
And the ripple goes back though the traffic stretching all along the automated motorway to hell.

So the mistake you made there right at the start: "As one gets closer to another".
That doesn't happen.
Instead of thinking of it that way imagine instead they're all fixed together with tow bars. Easy to see how that would work right?
Now swap the towbars for synchronous acceleration and deceleration and you should be able to see that they all stay exactly the same distance away.
Ever watched in wonderment at modern factories where everything "dances" in perfect synchronicity? Same thing, same principles.

PDQ Mobile wrote:The modern touch screen operating all those functions and all those options, noted by "pebble".
Hard to operate without looking at the thing. There has been, on here, so much condemnation of drivers using phones, rightly, but never a mention of this.

I suppose it depends what you're using it for. On my car there's nothing on there that requires my attention when driving - other than probably the sat nav.
Most of the cars functionality can be done through the steering wheel or the various sticky bits poking out of it. I can even turn the radio up/down, change channel using my thumb which like using a remote control doesn't even require me to glance down since my hands already in the right place.
Lots of cars have voice operation (in other markets even my car does). "Open sunroof" - easy peasy.

PDQ Mobile wrote:pwa's experience of the Minor is not mine.

I had a moggie pickup up until about 15 years ago.
I've been left at the lights by an old bloke on a bicycle, brakes where awful but probably the worst thing about it is every MOT something new needed welding.
It's not a car I'd be happy to crash in even at a low speed, 30mph and I reckon you'd be a gonna.
The other thing I remember about it is getting it out of the garage after the winter and invariably the clutch had rusted to the flywheel. Going up and down the road, foot on the clutch and jabbing the accelerator on and off to get it to break the 'seal' was a common theme.
It wasn't a car you could avoid servicing, hoses would just fail, brakes would seize, it needed frequent brake parts (I had a shelf full of cylinder service kits), drums would need the occasional skim to get them round again, electrics were simply appalling, lights were a joke.
I'm sort of sorry I've got rid of it now, I'd convert it to electric, put decent brakes on it, fit a new chassis and sort out all the cruddy bits.
(Only sort of, far too many projects atm most of which wont get finished before I am).

They fetch good money, I think I sold it at the time for £6k.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30026
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Nov 2020, 3:47pm

I've driven all sorts over the years but I only remember one Morris Minor. That must have been in 1971 and it will have been a then current model and it was a van. I had to return some bulky stolen property I had recovered to the owner and all I could lay my hands on was a dog van. My overriding memory is of painfully banging my knee getting in. And that's after nearly 50 years.

merseymouth
Posts: 2028
Joined: 23 Jan 2011, 11:16am

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby merseymouth » 22 Nov 2020, 5:28pm

Hi again, My old Maurice the Minor wore MG Midget Wheels with decent wider, taller Tyres. So grip & steering was never an issue. With servo assisted drum brakes no issue for us, but then we always drove like we wanted to live a lot longer, we didn't race but covered the ground ok.
The Ford 5-speed gearbox helped, low gears for the Manchester Car Park, otherwise known as the M62/602, but able to cruise at our happy speed.
I would certainly cover the ground better in that than the Dog Crossland, smiling all the way.
If I need speed I let the train take the strain. Won't be too long before folk who live like us won't be able to drive? Yes, all because we live in a terraced house with no off road space for parking and charging. Our daughter lives in a house within a small square, no space there either, so no chance for them either!
Maybe the government will knock out alternative houses and create charging spaces that way? TTFN MM

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3636
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bmblbzzz » 22 Nov 2020, 6:02pm

“This is all about aerodynamics of the vehicles so fuel economy and reduced emissions is a key benefit. We’ve heard claims of 5, 10, even up to 30% but no-one has done it in live traffic,” Wallis said.

Truckers in the emptier parts of America and Australia have been doing this for decades so the economy gains should be pretty well established.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 8447
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Nov 2020, 6:30pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:“This is all about aerodynamics of the vehicles so fuel economy and reduced emissions is a key benefit. We’ve heard claims of 5, 10, even up to 30% but no-one has done it in live traffic,” Wallis said.

Truckers in the emptier parts of America and Australia have been doing this for decades so the economy gains should be pretty well established.

So-called 'hypermilers' in the US also employ the technique, as do peletons, geese, and much else :D

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 22 Nov 2020, 7:05pm

merseymouth wrote:Won't be too long before folk who live like us won't be able to drive? Yes, all because we live in a terraced house with no off road space for parking and charging. Our daughter lives in a house within a small square, no space there either, so no chance for them either!
Maybe the government will knock out alternative houses and create charging spaces that way? TTFN MM

Assuming they can't put lamppost or kerbside chargers then just use public chargers.

On a basic charger an hour in the supermarket adds 30 miles, two hours at the pub 60 miles, 3 hours in town (or out of town mall) 90 miles. Train stations, cinemas etc etc.
You can probably nearly always get more miles than it took you to get to your destination.
Ikea near me have superchargers, 30 mins is about 100 miles (for my car, more for others).
A fair few petrol stations are getting superchargers too - in fact chargers are like mushrooms atm.

It's not like you have to be plugged in all the time, unless you're doing silly mileages you probably only need to charge once a week or so.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 22 Nov 2020, 10:46pm

kwackers wrote:So the mistake you made there right at the start: "As one gets closer to another".
That doesn't happen.
Instead of thinking of it that way imagine instead they're all fixed together with tow bars. Easy to see how that would work right?
Now swap the towbars for synchronous acceleration and deceleration and you should be able to see that they all stay exactly the same distance away.
Ever watched in wonderment at modern factories where everything "dances" in perfect synchronicity? Same thing, same principles.


I think you are confusing a railway train with a road system here!

The advantage of a normal human controlled road system, where individual units leave and enter the flow pretty randomly and constantly, is a deal of individual flexibility, within parameters.

And no, I haven't wondered at modern factories much(!), though I see the dance/ballet metaphor reappears.

It won't work just using sensors. And/or GPS. IMV.

Pebble
Posts: 342
Joined: 7 Jun 2020, 11:59pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Pebble » 22 Nov 2020, 11:42pm

merseymouth wrote:Biggest issue for driver these days is inattention, to many distractions. Which brings me to the Crossland again? The journey kept being disrupted by a shrill electronic noise and flashing light on the dash??? As this was a hire car we had no knowledge of what this was all about, so we stopped and waded through the handbook.
Turned out it was a "Low Fuel" warning!!!! It was 7/8ths full? Bloody distracting. Take me back to using the length of garden cane!
These issues are certainly a problem for folk like me who don't own a car but who hire them for essential use. I requested a Corsa, which I was slightly familiar with, instead I got a Rover in disguise? It was a "DOG"!

You should take a length of cane along when hiring a car, when you do the walk around; bung the cane down the filler tube, mark the depth with a felt tip and announce to the suit "that's all its coming back with - agreed" Then ask where the starting handle is.

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 23 Nov 2020, 8:01am

PDQ Mobile wrote:I think you are confusing a railway train with a road system here!

No I'm not, that's exactly what it is.


PDQ Mobile wrote:It won't work just using sensors. And/or GPS. IMV.

Right...
And you say that because?

We were testing systems like this that worked 40 years ago, it's probably one of the most trivial things to implement.

You should probably leave things you don't understand to folk who do and accept their judgement.
You seem to suffer from a the technical equivalent of "flat earth" brought on by the "I don't understand how a ball earth can work therefore it must be flat" philosophy.

thirdcrank
Posts: 30026
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Nov 2020, 8:03am

The railway analogy is partly why I think pedestrians, cyclists etc will be marginalised with farcilities and fences.

It's the random flow which drives the insatiable demand for greater road capacity and is behind a lot of collisions.

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 23 Nov 2020, 8:13am

thirdcrank wrote:The railway analogy is partly why I think pedestrians, cyclists etc will be marginalised with farcilities and fences.

It's the random flow which drives the insatiable demand for greater road capacity and is behind a lot of collisions.

The "railway system" can only work on motorways and trunk roads.

Traffic flow behaves like fluids, in fact most modelling is done with fluid dynamics.
Traffic flows best when it's "laminar" rather than "turbulent".

Local traffic can never be anything other than turbulent due to its nature, but trunk roads and motorways would be much better as laminar flow, the reason they're not is because "humans".
Such a system would allow laminar flow on motorways and trunk roads (places there are no peds or cyclists anyway), improving traffic speeds and energy consumption.
Away from such roads it's difficult to use, offers no benefits and would require huge infrastructure changes which would be at odds with what local traffic needs.

It'll be mainly trucks that'll use it initially because the potential cost benefits are huge although once the technology is in place there's no reason cars couldn't use it.


If you actually think about it, it's a simple step up from using adaptive cruise control.
On motorways these days I stick the cruise control on and the car simply follows the one in front using a radar system to work out what it's doing.

The only addition to this is adding the ability for the car in front to tell mine when it accelerates or brakes thus allowing mine to respond instantly, if my car detected such a system was available the only real difference is it would close up the gap in front - essentially removing the "thinking" distance since it's not needed.
Pretty trivial really.

reohn2
Posts: 40122
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby reohn2 » 23 Nov 2020, 10:07am

merseymouth wrote:Hi again, My old Maurice the Minor wore MG Midget Wheels with decent wider, taller Tyres. So grip & steering was never an issue. With servo assisted drum brakes no issue for us, but then we always drove like we wanted to live a lot longer, we didn't race but covered the ground ok.
The Ford 5-speed gearbox helped, low gears for the Manchester Car Park, otherwise known as the M62/602, but able to cruise at our happy speed.
I would certainly cover the ground better in that than the Dog Crossland, smiling all the way.
If I need speed I let the train take the strain. Won't be too long before folk who live like us won't be able to drive? Yes, all because we live in a terraced house with no off road space for parking and charging. Our daughter lives in a house within a small square, no space there either, so no chance for them either!
Maybe the government will knock out alternative houses and create charging spaces that way? TTFN MM

That's lot of customising and modifications to make a 1930's design worth owning and driving :shock:
Last edited by reohn2 on 23 Nov 2020, 10:11am, edited 1 time in total.
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PDQ Mobile
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby PDQ Mobile » 23 Nov 2020, 10:08am

kwackers wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:I think you are confusing a railway train with a road system here!

No I'm not, that's exactly what it is.


PDQ Mobile wrote:It won't work just using sensors. And/or GPS. IMV.

Right...
And you say that because?

We were testing systems like this that worked 40 years ago, it's probably one of the most trivial things to implement.

You should probably leave things you don't understand to folk who do and accept their judgement.
You seem to suffer from a the technical equivalent of "flat earth" brought on by the "I don't understand how a ball earth can work therefore it must be flat" philosophy.

Hmm...Well actually I was out under the stars last night, considering Mars spinning away, and Orion and his dog Canus hunting the Bull.
I was acutely aware of a spinning globe.

But a couple of simple points raised against the idea that any system could make an automated traffic system work and I'm a member of the flat earth society!
Personally I reckon your the starry eyed one on this!

So let's have a closer look at the fluid analogy.
We have in the case of a motorway, at present, different velocities all within one flow. We also have individual units within those (three lane) flows moving at different velocities.
And those individual units change position and also enter and leave the main flow at "random".

Additionally these are not "flat earth" (a convenient but flawed idea here!) conditions, but rather hilly ones and bigger heavier vehicles move quite slowly up some of those long hills.
At which point faster moving traffic prefers to overtake them? Or every vehicle is forced to the speed of the slowest?

So this is anything but "all joined together" in some digitally and rigidly controlled system.
But something vastly more turbulent and variable.

It is the flexibilty at the heart of fast local and long distance door to door delivery, of amongst other things, super fresh foodstuffs.

Now I am a fan of moving freight by electric train. Probably in the distance to weight relation the most efficient system possible.
But it only really works well moving big quantities from set place to set place.
Containerization helps but the "lorry", perhaps electrically powered, is here to stay for a good bit yet.

What you are suggesting here then is three lanes (or five) all moving at their different, totally fixed speeds, with no overtaking at all?

Traffic entering the nearside lane will presumably "prebook" a slot on the slip road? And if it's lots of slots for lots of vehicles then a massive tailback will ensue - much as it does today on any peak period road.
That same newly entered but faster traffic will then presumably "prebook" a slot in the middle lane(s) as it moves further across further disrupting the linear flow.
And ten miles further along the whole process will be repeated in reverse?
Resulting in the whole congested road slowing and becoming even more congested?
Much as happens today but vastly worse, because it is so rigid.


And then there's punctures and mechanical breakdowns to consider.
Does this wonder system allow "Terry Tesla the car" out in the "fast" lane, to say "oh I am losing pressure in offside front, I must move to the hard shoulder" quickly booking a slot of course.
Or does he merely stop crippled in lane and block the whole damn place for a very considerable time?Mechanical failure ditto.

Please tell us how you foresee these issues resolved.

kwackers
Posts: 15021
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby kwackers » 23 Nov 2020, 10:16am

PDQ Mobile wrote:Please tell us how you foresee these issues resolved.

The only issues are based around you assuming it all works exactly the way you currently drive.

ACC means I don't drive the way I used to.
I turn it on and let it simply follow the car in front, I usually set the speed to 65mph so if the car in front speeds up he'll pull away, if he slows down so do I.
I only change lane if the speed drops significantly below and tbh I rarely bother looking at the speedo anyway.

If I had a "train system" then when I turned the ACC on it would 'talk' to the car ahead and if it also had the system then the gap would simply close up otherwise it'd behave like normal.

That's it in a nutshell.
Nothing hard, nothing complicated, nothing to understand.


P.S you know stars and planets are just stickers on the inside of the dome don't you? ;)

Jdsk
Posts: 3777
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: High Performance Cars

Postby Jdsk » 23 Nov 2020, 10:24am

The same technology that will allow truck convoys can also be used to prevent concertina "accidents" involving other vehicles on eg motorways. Passing the information longitudinally removes the dependence on the reaction and braking distances of individual drivers.

Jonathan