Dangerous front lights

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Lookrider
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Lookrider » 30 Dec 2020, 8:24am

Yes good video...some rural rds become hazardous as we let our guard down thinking theres nobody else around ...I guess the stop sign is ignored as the motorist cannot see the cyclist because of the blind spot so he thinks why stop when the road is clear
The staggered cross road seems a good recourse with very little environment damage as well
Rural country roads can be as dangerous as city roads

Jdsk
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Jdsk » 30 Dec 2020, 10:53am

There's an excellent discussion of that New Forest crossing with a lot more information at:
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=119507

Cyril Haearn wrote:An interesting film for those who disagree with me about stop signs and ability to read

It's worth reading the whole story and the excellent analysis before coming to any simplistic conclusions.

Despite being asked many times I don't think that you've ever provided any evidence that drivers who don't stop when they should "can't read". Is there any, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Cyril Haearn » 30 Dec 2020, 10:59am

Go away please
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Jdsk
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Jdsk » 30 Dec 2020, 11:03am

I have no interest in blaming anybody, and I'll repeat my thanks to the original poster for sharing the experience. That way we can all learn.

[XAP]Bob wrote:... A dark road, with headlights coming towards you there is no way you can see anything *but* the headlights - they are sufficiently bright to eradicate any contrast anywhere else. So that's all the information you have. And you know what looks like a car at distance, a cyclist with lights at 1/4 the separation and 1/4 the distance.

That might not be the case. There's lots of information that might be available other than the angular separation of the two lights... the rate of change of the separation, the movement of the lights in visual space, both low frequency showing movement of the vehicle and high frequency showing wobble and jolts, the moving pattern of what the headlights are illuminating, and if you know the road or there's any background available the line that the vehicle is taking on the road.

Several of those only work or work a lot better if the observation is repeated over time.

Jonathan

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Jan 2021, 5:16pm

Jdsk wrote:I have no interest in blaming anybody, and I'll repeat my thanks to the original poster for sharing the experience. That way we can all learn.

[XAP]Bob wrote:... A dark road, with headlights coming towards you there is no way you can see anything *but* the headlights - they are sufficiently bright to eradicate any contrast anywhere else. So that's all the information you have. And you know what looks like a car at distance, a cyclist with lights at 1/4 the separation and 1/4 the distance.

That might not be the case. There's lots of information that might be available other than the angular separation of the two lights... the rate of change of the separation, the movement of the lights in visual space, both low frequency showing movement of the vehicle and high frequency showing wobble and jolts, the moving pattern of what the headlights are illuminating, and if you know the road or there's any background available the line that the vehicle is taking on the road.

Several of those only work or work a lot better if the observation is repeated over time.

Jonathan



Yes - although the rate of change of angular separation is not necessarily a good indicator - it tells you the rate at which the lights are approaching if, and only if, you have the correct assumption about the expected final separation (and mistaking a bike for a car means you have less time than you expect :( ).

The vibration of the lights (for want of a better word) is often, IME, obscured by the dazzle of the lights (even more so now, since my visual field isn't stable enough to discern them accurately).

If you can see what is being illuminated, then that is a serious additional hint, but there isn't actually any certainty that anything else will be visible, and for a distant car - I wouldn't necessarily expect to see around a car's lights.


There are always cases where the available evidence isn't sufficient, and the outcome depends on at least two parties doing reasonable things. The motorist in this case could have taken a couple of additional seconds, but it's not all that obvious... The cyclist clearly had time to avoid a collision, which is that "second person being reasonable" was about.

I'm not saying that there is nothing to learn here, but one thing that *we* (as cyclists) can learn is that we can be misidentified as a distant motor vehicle if our lights are in that arrangement - and it's relatively easy to avoid that configuration.
As motorists it's prudent to note that assumptions are the cause of almost all incidents, and not just to look at this specific "two lights" assumption, but look at the general case - "what assumptions do I make every time I look out of the windscreen?"
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Rmr25
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Location: Nottinghamshire

Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Rmr25 » 8 Jan 2021, 7:12am

How many cars are on the road with only one light working?, I see several each week.

pwa
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby pwa » 8 Jan 2021, 7:52am

Rmr25 wrote:How many cars are on the road with only one light working?, I see several each week.

So do I. I don't think you can just pull over and pop a new bulb in like we used to do.

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tykeboy2003
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby tykeboy2003 » 8 Jan 2021, 8:20am

pwa wrote:
Rmr25 wrote:How many cars are on the road with only one light working?, I see several each week.

So do I. I don't think you can just pull over and pop a new bulb in like we used to do.

Used to be a 2 minute job but modern cars are so packed tight under the bonnet that you end up having to take the whole light cluster out just to change a bulb. Poor design.

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squeaker
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby squeaker » 8 Jan 2021, 8:36am

tykeboy2003 wrote:Used to be a 2 minute job but modern cars are so packed tight under the bonnet that you end up having to take the whole light cluster out just to change a bulb. Poor design.
Or what looks like the whole nose of the vehicle (Renault Modus, IIRC) :roll:
"42"

Pebble
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Pebble » 8 Jan 2021, 10:46am

some vehicles mustn't have front lights! - how can anyone be so incompetent that they crash into 4 horses, they'r not actually very small.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-55506891

Barks
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Barks » 9 Jan 2021, 9:44am

Pebble wrote:some vehicles mustn't have front lights! - how can anyone be so incompetent that they crash into 4 horses, they'r not actually very small.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-55506891


I suspect driving too fast and on dipped headlights - the speed limit is 40mph on this road but many regularly exceed this. Sadly, this was, and will almost certainly be again in the future, an inevitable outcome of the complete lack of respect of basic laws, rules and guidelines that are there for all our benefit and that of the wider environment when they ‘impinge’ on some people’s sense of their own importance.

In each of the Lockdowns, as traffic levels reduced we have have seen insane speeds on the roads in my area. You can even hear the excessive acceleration and tyre squeals from 100s of yards away.

pwa
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby pwa » 9 Jan 2021, 11:40am

Barks wrote:
Pebble wrote:some vehicles mustn't have front lights! - how can anyone be so incompetent that they crash into 4 horses, they'r not actually very small.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... e-55506891


I suspect driving too fast and on dipped headlights - the speed limit is 40mph on this road but many regularly exceed this. Sadly, this was, and will almost certainly be again in the future, an inevitable outcome of the complete lack of respect of basic laws, rules and guidelines that are there for all our benefit and that of the wider environment when they ‘impinge’ on some people’s sense of their own importance.

In each of the Lockdowns, as traffic levels reduced we have have seen insane speeds on the roads in my area. You can even hear the excessive acceleration and tyre squeals from 100s of yards away.

Around here we have commons with sheep roaming all over the place, and local people drive accordingly, especially at night. You anticipate the sheep that might be around the next bend. It should make you a better driver because it trains you not to trust to luck, and to view each blind bend with mistrust. Clearly some people don't get the message.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Jan 2021, 10:48am

rmurphy195 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:If one has two lights they could be diagonally aligned, that should confuse anyone seeing them. One hopes


Why on earth would you want to cause confusion and endanger people?


There is a lot of evidence that often once they have identified a cyclist drivers "deprioritise" increasing the risk

"Confuse" was not perhaps the best word, but being out of the normal expectations makes the driver think about your presence and plan an appropriate reaction

Does not endanger anyone

Jdsk
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Jdsk » 10 Jan 2021, 10:54am

Cunobelin wrote:
rmurphy195 wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:If one has two lights they could be diagonally aligned, that should confuse anyone seeing them. One hopes

Why on earth would you want to cause confusion and endanger people?

There is a lot of evidence that often once they have identified a cyclist drivers "deprioritise" increasing the risk

Could you cite a few of the best studies, please?

Thanks

Jonathan

Brucey
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Re: Dangerous front lights

Postby Brucey » 10 Jan 2021, 6:01pm

pwa wrote: ….Around here we have commons with sheep roaming all over the place, and local people drive accordingly.....


yeah, like ruddy sheep....?... :wink:

cheers
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