Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

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thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

It seems to me that prevention is better than cure.

At the moment - in my own words - bad driving is defined in relation to the accepted standard. And that accepted standard has plummeted since it was first established. (There's a link in the Alliston thread explaining how that definition came about.) As I keep hammering away, "traffic" enforcement has collapsed and if camera enforcement is discounted, it's even worse than collapsed. Now, if people think they can't touch you for it, their conduct may deteriorate. I'm not suggesting they all develop killer instincts overnight, just that some tend to take more chances "use their judgment" in their own favour.
MikeF
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by MikeF »

Apparently the reason giving why people don't cycle on roads is that "it's too dangerous".
Perhaps what they mean is that driving standards are too low.

Police have stated they refuse to police to speed limits in 20mph zones. Surely any motorist who exceeds the limit is driving wantonly and furiously?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

MikeF wrote:Apparently the reason giving why people don't cycle on roads is that "it's too dangerous".
Perhaps what they mean is that driving standards are too low.

Police have stated they refuse to police to speed limits in 20mph zones. Surely any motorist who exceeds the limit is driving wantonly and furiously?


Unfortunately, I've a big back-catalogue here.

I have posted - did I hear shouts of "frequently" - that the likes of the CTC missed an opportunity when PCSOs were empowered to issue tickets for pavement cycling: the New Labour government had proclaimed its intention to be "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime."

Re the enforcement of 20mph limits, that's quite an old story now and I believe the policy was changed some time ago, but I'm not sure. IIRC, the original story dates from something said by Mark Milsom at the All Party Cycling Charade. FWIW I used to share a desk with Mark before he rose to ACPO rank, but he's been retired a long time.

With some of this, the devil really is in the detail. A cyclist only riding at any speed you like would not be charged with the s 35 offence, the gaping loophole being the requirement to "do or cause to be done bodily harm"

35 Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving.

Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years, . .


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vi ... section/35
Jdsk
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Jdsk »

fastpedaller wrote:I still don't think there's a definition of Wanton & Furious, except there appears a 'common thread' running through the cases where the defendants have been convicted - that of having defective or missing brakes and missing (not legally required) bells!

I think that the available information identifies the behaviour of the cyclist as being the crucial factor, not the hardware of the bike.

Jonathan
Vorpal
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I still don't think there's a definition of Wanton & Furious, except there appears a 'common thread' running through the cases where the defendants have been convicted - that of having defective or missing brakes and missing (not legally required) bells!

I think that the available information identifies the behaviour of the cyclist as being the crucial factor, not the hardware of the bike.

Jonathan

As far as that goes, equipment, or lack thereof on a bicycle, especially in contravention of law, is going to be taken as indication of behaviour. That is, someone who is willing to ride a bike in an illegal / unsafe state is likely to be willing to do other illegal / unsafe things.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Jdsk
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Jdsk »

Vorpal wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:I still don't think there's a definition of Wanton & Furious, except there appears a 'common thread' running through the cases where the defendants have been convicted - that of having defective or missing brakes and missing (not legally required) bells!

I think that the available information identifies the behaviour of the cyclist as being the crucial factor, not the hardware of the bike.

As far as that goes, equipment, or lack thereof on a bicycle, especially in contravention of law, is going to be taken as indication of behaviour. That is, someone who is willing to ride a bike in an illegal / unsafe state is likely to be willing to other illegal / unsafe things.

Are there any cases where this charge has been used solely because of the condition of the bike? I don't know any... they all involve what the rider did just before the incident.

Jonathan
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Vorpal »

Jdsk wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
Jdsk wrote:I think that the available information identifies the behaviour of the cyclist as being the crucial factor, not the hardware of the bike.

As far as that goes, equipment, or lack thereof on a bicycle, especially in contravention of law, is going to be taken as indication of behaviour. That is, someone who is willing to ride a bike in an illegal / unsafe state is likely to be willing to other illegal / unsafe things.

Are there any cases where this charge has been used solely because of the condition of the bike? I don't know any... they all involve what the rider did just before the incident.

Jonathan

I'm not aware of any, but I am certainly not an expert on case law wrt wanton & furious cycling, either. I do think that prosecutors are likely point out things like that as indicative of character & behaviour. 'Look! Cyclist X rides an *illegally* adapted bike! That means they don't care about the law! Perfectly willing to run red lights! Ride in a wanton & furious manner!' etc. It may also be considered a contributing factor, as in the Alliston case.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
fastpedaller
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by fastpedaller »

Vorpal wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
Vorpal wrote:As far as that goes, equipment, or lack thereof on a bicycle, especially in contravention of law, is going to be taken as indication of behaviour. That is, someone who is willing to ride a bike in an illegal / unsafe state is likely to be willing to other illegal / unsafe things.

Are there any cases where this charge has been used solely because of the condition of the bike? I don't know any... they all involve what the rider did just before the incident.

Jonathan

I'm not aware of any, but I am certainly not an expert on case law wrt wanton & furious cycling, either. I do think that prosecutors are likely point out things like that as indicative of character & behaviour. 'Look! Cyclist X rides an *illegally* adapted bike! That means they don't care about the law! Perfectly willing to run red lights! Ride in a wanton & furious manner!' etc. It may also be considered a contributing factor, as in the Alliston case.

I notice in the summing-up of the Alliston case there is mention of his lack of helmet, suggesting recklessness - I can't see the connection there. One could argue if he had been wearing a helmet he could be considered reckless, due to the (mistaken?) belief that he wouldn't get hurt in the event of a collision.
thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

The dangerous condition of a vehicle can - in itself - amount to dangerous driving but that tends to be revealed only after a crash.

I'm not going back to check, but quite recently there was a link on the "lenient sentences" thread to a case where a driver had pleaded guilty in those circumstances.

The crash which led to the death of Mitzi Steady and several adults whose names I have forgotten is a terrible example of dangerous driving by virtue(?) of the condition of the vehicle.

viewtopic.php?p=865710#p865710
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Vorpal »

thirdcrank wrote:The crash which led to the death of Mitzi Steady and several adults whose names I have forgotten is a terrible example of dangerous driving by virtue(?) of the condition of the vehicle.

discussed at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=94216
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

Vorpal wrote: ...
discussed at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=94216


Thanks. Sorry about that. I linked to a thread beginning with the same title but which had been split from another.
thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

Re wanton and furious cycling.

It's occurred to me that there's been some confusion in the past over this on this forum. IIRC that may have begun when somebody linked to an article which claimed to be some sort of legal guidance for cycling which dismissed the existence of a "furious cycling" offence. I cant find that thread now, but the simple fact is that there are two offences which broadly fit that description and both have been prosecuted in the modern era. The more serious is the one with which the defendant is charged with in this case - outlined above.

The other is a summary offence under s28 Town Police Clauses Act, which, as I've posted before is a glimpse into urban life in the 19C

viewtopic.php?p=190276#p190276

Having posted the whole of s28 I omitted the link which is here

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vi ... section/28
thirdcrank
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by thirdcrank »

The trial continues. Bearing in mind one of my posts above, I'm pleased to see the prosecution includes this:

Expert examinations from the scene show the cyclist's traffic lights had turned from green to amber eight and a half seconds before he crossed the stop line


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... orted.html
fastpedaller
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by fastpedaller »

I'm still puzzled as to how 'Wanton & Furious' is defined. I have known some very good and fast cyclists who (because of their physique/good lungs?) could be travelling along a road a lot faster than I, without looking furious (in fact barely out of breath). Does the (often accomplished by motorists) 'mistake' of jumping a red light immediately make a cyclist liable to be prosecuted for what appears to be the equivalent of dangerous driving? If that is the case I would welcome 'new' offences which would (hopefully) provide clarification.
Jdsk
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Re: Another cyclist on trial for manslaughter

Post by Jdsk »

fastpedaller wrote:I'm still puzzled as to how 'Wanton & Furious' is defined.

I don't think there is anything beyond what's already linked above.

Jonathan
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