How can I stop this happening?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Pete Owens
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

ClappedOut wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:18pm Do you ride in the gutter? I take my 9 year old out and we don’t seem to suffer same issues.
More likely the truck drivers were underestimating the cyclists speed in that particular case. The description sounds like they did change lanes but didn't allow sufficient distance to complete the overtake.
ClappedOut
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by ClappedOut »

I play both sides of the coin riding a bicycle and as I also drive a van as well the situation isn’t always clear cut as May be suggested.

Without video footage it is hard to know the actual situation.
KTHSullivan
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by KTHSullivan »

PT1029 wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 8:29pm As already mentioned uptyhread. Also CJ also had a method for a particular bend just outside Oxford when he lived ther for a year or 2 ages ago.
He had a rear view mirror, as a driver approached what he judged to be the point where the driver made a decision to pass, or not pass, he rode in a sort of unsteady/wobbly way. Doing that had a hight sucess rate for drivers not overtaking on that bend.
The mirror is the key, if you look over your shoulder, the driver knows you have seen him/her.
For those who know the area, Oxford bound on the B4044, the bend just by Hill End.
I quite often "wobble" as a deterrent at a particular set of traffic lights in Market Rasen even though I am in "prime position" I have found that without the wobble some clown will try to push me into the curb.
Just remember, when you’re over the hill, you begin to pick up speed. :lol:
Pete Owens
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

foxyrider wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:56pm If anything, my recent rides have been plagued by drivers who won't pass when its safe, i find a glance back, no hand signals, spurs them into action, its as though they have locked in to driving at 15mph!
"plagued" sounds an odd word to use in that context.
I think that is the result of the close pass initiatives. Drivers are now more aware of the need to give us plenty of space - and if they overestimate it rather than underestimate it that is entirely to be welcomed.
DevonDamo
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:37pmIf there is enough room to allow safe overtaking why are you taking the lane in the first place?
Being in the middle of the lane when there are no vehicles following you isn't 'taking the lane' - it's riding a bike.
Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:37pm If there isn't then pulling over merely encourages the sort of close pass that the OP is hoping to prevent.
The reason for my post was to share my experience: i.e. that pulling over in a position where it's not safe for an overtake hasn't actually encouraged the unsafe overtakes that you and every else prophesise - it's done the opposite. This may be counterintuitive but it's worked for me and appears more successful than 'taking the lane' judging by the experiences I regularly read on here.
Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:37pm What you describe sounds like you are being wilfully obstructive. Unnecessarily, obstructing the progress of traffic that could safely overtake, but just for a little bit. Equivalent to driving a tractor along the outside lane of a dual carriageway and only pulling across when a faster vehicle catches up with you and slows down to your speed.
Your mistake here is that you've read my words with a presumption of antagonism. In fact, I chose my words carefully, i.e. waiting until the following driver was "starting to think about" overtaking. From a psychological perspective, you start to think about an overtake as soon as you've seen the vehicle and recognised the speed differential, i.e. long before you'd actually need to slow down. In practice, this simply means I pull over when I think it's likely a driver approaching from behind will have seen me.

(To pre-empt your inevitable 'what about...' follow-ups: yes, I use a mirror, no, I don't wear earphones and my reply to the OP referred to the specific circumstance he described - like anyone else, I'll employ different strategies in different situations, e.g. riding in heavy or slow traffic.)
Stradageek
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Stradageek »

DevonDamo wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:50pm So why would my approach work? I put it down to simple psychology. Drivers tend to operate on the human equivalent of autopilot, so when they see a cyclist 'taking the lane' their brain merely registers you as a difficult overtake. For that reason, they're prepared to make a risky manoeuvre at the earliest opportunity because if they don't take that opportunity, they may encounter a line of oncoming traffic which will result in them being stuck behind the bike that's 'taking the lane.' However, when they see me making it clear that I'm going to help them get past, they don't register me as a difficult overtake so are more relaxed about waiting for a safer opportunity after the bend. I really don't suffer from dangerous 'blind' overtakes or punishment passes and my only frequent frustration is when an overly-cautious driver insists on staying behind me rather than overtaking - resulting in an impatient queue behind them.
Thanks DD, I see what you're thinking and it does make sense. My wife adds that your approach may also predispose the driver to think 'he's being nice, I don't have to get cross with him' and therefore mitigates the impetus for an aggressive overtake.

I also see, from all the postings, that a variety of strategies are required, :D

An explanation for my 'poor' day yesterday possibly emerged as we walked to the shops this morning - lockdown having eased there's a lot more traffic on the roads, so maybe lots of motorists re-learning the risks?

Cheers

Stradageek
Jdsk
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Jdsk »

DevonDamo wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 8:17amIn fact, I chose my words carefully, i.e. waiting until the following driver was "starting to think about" overtaking. From a psychological perspective, you start to think about an overtake as soon as you've seen the vehicle and recognised the speed differential, i.e. long before you'd actually need to slow down. In practice, this simply means I pull over when I think it's likely a driver approaching from behind will have seen me.
Thanks for the clarification.

Jonathan
Pete Owens
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

DevonDamo wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 8:17am
Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:37pm If there isn't then pulling over merely encourages the sort of close pass that the OP is hoping to prevent.
The reason for my post was to share my experience: i.e. that pulling over in a position where it's not safe for an overtake hasn't actually encouraged the unsafe overtakes that you and every else prophesise
But you didn't describe a situation where it is not safe to overtake what you wrote was:
' I will habitually ride in the middle of the lane until I judge a following vehicle has got close enough that they're starting to think about overtaking. At that point I pull well over to the left and give them plenty of room to get past. "
If there is plenty of room to get past then it is safe to overtake so riding in secondary is exactly what we would all recomend to you in such circumstances.
In fact, I chose my words carefully, i.e. waiting until the following driver was "starting to think about" overtaking. From a psychological perspective, you start to think about an overtake as soon as you've seen the vehicle and recognised the speed differential, i.e. long before you'd actually need to slow down.
And well before you were aware of exactly what part of the road the cyclistst was occupying - and before the cyclist had seen you.
In practice, this simply means I pull over when I think it's likely a driver approaching from behind will have seen me.
In practice what it means is that as far as any external wirnesses are concerned you are always riding to the left (Schrodingers primary position maybe). This is fine when you are riding on roads where overtaking is unproblematical - you ride on the left leaving "plenty of room to get past" and they overtake through that plentiful space.

The issue comes when you ride on roads where there isn't plenty of space to leave. If you ride to the left in those circumstances then you are not leaving plenty of space, but just enough to physically squeeze past - and by riding to the left some will take up your invitation to do just that.
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foxyrider
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by foxyrider »

ClappedOut wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:18pm Do you ride in the gutter? I take my 9 year old out and we don’t seem to suffer same issues.
Far from it! I'm quite happy riding in secondary and taking the lane if i think there is a chance of a dodgy pass, the road narrowing or a blind bend for example but some drivers, particularly white van persons and women with school age kids on board/to collect have a tendency to 'need' to pass whether its safe or not. The rise of HD this last year has seen a significant increase in these moves, you need no qualification beyond a licence to get a delivery van job, maybe there should be an LCV licence with appropriate training. It does seem more prolific with unliveried vehicles which do a lot of Amazon/Hermes etc deliveries.

In general HGV's, except for tipper drivers who are a nightmare, are very good at giving wide passes which yesterdays pair were doing except they then had to make emergency lane changes to avoid the oncoming traffic. Its not that i was even my speed, slower than motor traffic of course, 15/18mph perhaps but neither were they going much faster!

You've answered your own question in a way though, you are with your 9yo so almost certainly you will be travelling a bit slower and drivers see children and (mostly) give more consideration in their passing manoeuvres for all sorts of reasons. A solo adult OTOH garners much less respect.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
DevonDamo
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 11:37am But you didn't describe a situation where it is not safe to overtake what you wrote ...
I doff my cap to you for your forensic linguistic investigation technique, but I refer to the last line of my previous answer: i.e. I was replying to the OP about the specific circumstance he described. Indeed, I could have dotted the i's and crossed the t's more by instead writing "be seen to be giving them as much space as I can under the circumstances" but I'd already nearly worn out my keyboard by that stage. Thankfully, unlike yourself, the OP (and his wife) didn't interpret what I'd written as advocating a hooligan's policy of brake-checking every vehicle that comes up behind me, before swooping back towards the kerb. However, if you prefer to see me in that kind of role, then let's stick with that. I always find it more exciting to play the villains - they're more interesting than the good guys.

...
Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 11:37amThe issue comes when you ride on roads where there isn't plenty of space to leave. If you ride to the left in those circumstances then you are not leaving plenty of space, but just enough to physically squeeze past - and by riding to the left some will take up your invitation to do just that.
Rather than repeat for a third time, it will save my poor keyboard if I just quote myself.
DevonDamo wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 8:17amThe reason for my post was to share my experience: i.e. that pulling over in a position where it's not safe for an overtake hasn't actually encouraged the unsafe overtakes that you and every else prophesise - it's done the opposite. This may be counterintuitive but it's worked for me and appears more successful than 'taking the lane' judging by the experiences I regularly read on here.
Pete Owens
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

DevonDamo wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 8:17amThe reason for my post was to share my experience: i.e. that pulling over in a position where it's not safe for an overtake hasn't actually encouraged the unsafe overtakes that you and every else prophesise - it's done the opposite. This may be counterintuitive but it's worked for me and appears more successful than 'taking the lane' judging by the experiences I regularly read on here.
So you are claiming that you personally experience less overtaking in circumstances when you move over to leave a gap so that dangerous overtaking is just possible through the restricted space to your right than if you occupy that space so that the only way to get past is by mowing you down?
DevonDamo
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by DevonDamo »

Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 2:53pmSo you are claiming that you personally experience less overtaking in circumstances when you move over to leave a gap so that dangerous overtaking is just possible...
Again - to save my keyboard, I'm going to cut and paste my (re)quote:
DevonDamo wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 8:17amThe reason for my post was to share my experience: i.e. that pulling over in a position where it's not safe for an overtake hasn't actually encouraged the unsafe overtakes that you and every else prophesise - it's done the opposite. This may be counterintuitive but it's worked for me and appears more successful than 'taking the lane' judging by the experiences I regularly read on here.
(The good news, and a top IT tip, is that once you've 'cut' something, each time you 'paste' it, you get another copy. So let me know if you need me to do a few more copies - it's really no trouble.)
Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 2:53pm...through the restricted space to your right than if you occupy that space so that the only way to get past is by mowing you down?
Now.... where... was... it....? I'm sure I read an account on here somewhere about someone pulling out into primary because they were in a location where an overtake was unsafe, and subsequently being put at risk by a dangerous overtake. But they weren't mown down though, which can't be right - because as you point out: that's the only possible way an overtake can occur in an unsafe location.

Hang on - I've got it! It was the OP. Have a look - it's a cracking read.
Vorpal
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

Please argue nicely. The sarcasm & sarcastic assumptions don't contribute to the discussion at hand.

Ask politely if you don't understand what someone else is saying.

Thanks
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
ClappedOut
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by ClappedOut »

foxyrider wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 1:12pm
ClappedOut wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:18pm Do you ride in the gutter? I take my 9 year old out and we don’t seem to suffer same issues.
Far from it! I'm quite happy riding in secondary and taking the lane if i think there is a chance of a dodgy pass, the road narrowing or a blind bend for example but some drivers, particularly white van persons and women with school age kids on board/to collect have a tendency to 'need' to pass whether its safe or not. The rise of HD this last year has seen a significant increase in these moves, you need no qualification beyond a licence to get a delivery van job, maybe there should be an LCV licence with appropriate training. It does seem more prolific with unliveried vehicles which do a lot of Amazon/Hermes etc deliveries.

In general HGV's, except for tipper drivers who are a nightmare, are very good at giving wide passes which yesterdays pair were doing except they then had to make emergency lane changes to avoid the oncoming traffic. Its not that i was even my speed, slower than motor traffic of course, 15/18mph perhaps but neither were they going much faster!

You've answered your own question in a way though, you are with your 9yo so almost certainly you will be travelling a bit slower and drivers see children and (mostly) give more consideration in their passing manoeuvres for all sorts of reasons. A solo adult OTOH garners much less respect.
I ride solo as well, discussed this issue with an associate and the first question was what was the cyclist wearing and what bike were they riding?

Said I didn't know and his reply was this:-

Families ok
Town bikes ok
Mountain bikes ok

Bad experiences Road bikes and tarred all with same brush.

Maybe it is a stereotype issue? Or particular stretch of road encourages behaviour?
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foxyrider
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Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by foxyrider »

ClappedOut wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 6:40pm

I ride solo as well, discussed this issue with an associate and the first question was what was the cyclist wearing and what bike were they riding?

Said I didn't know and his reply was this:-

Families ok
Town bikes ok
Mountain bikes ok

Bad experiences Road bikes and tarred all with same brush.

Maybe it is a stereotype issue? Or particular stretch of road encourages behaviour?
So you can tell your mate, i. as usual was on my clapped out road bike with a humongous seat pack, shorts and a nice bright yellow with black trim jersey - pretty sure none of the above had any impact on the HGV incidents yesterday. OTOH, much like all Audi drivers are t***s, someone 'wronged' by a road bike rider may have a similar issue with any drop bar rider they come across although in my experience it makes no difference to the style of bike but rather to who is on it. For example, i have fairly long, blonde hair - if its blowing in the wind i invariably get treated with more respect than if its hidden under my hat, we even did an experiment at the shop with another chap wearing a long wig with the same result. Yesterday i wasn't wearing a hat - it was glorious, i even had arms and legs out! :lol:
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
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