How can I stop this happening?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
awavey
Posts: 300
Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:04am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by awavey »

gender doesnt make a difference IME though I dont have exactly rapunzel like trusses of flowing hair out the back of a helmet, but I dont think motorists are going around being that observant anyway checking out peoples hairstyles or gender and drawing conclusions like they need to give the fairer sex cyclist more room. The only time I felt it might have changed how I was treated on the roads was when I wore a very neon pink breast cancer charity top once, but that could be as much to do with them being sympathetic to charity riders or neon pink as a "hi-viz" colour as Ive observed riders who wear "hi viz" will often be treated better by the same drivers who deal out closer passes to non hiviz riders.

but actually we are just sharing anecdotes and anecdotes do not make anecdata, the sampling sizes of this are way too small to draw any meaningful conclusions on driver behaviour through all our certain categoristics or how we ride certain situations, because you can never test how the same driver would react in the exact same circumstance but with a different rider or riding approach in that situation,and repeat that enough times with enough drivers to draw meaningful conclusions, these are all random one off interactions and we dont know if we are capturing enough data to prove our own pet theories actually work.

not that this helps the OP, sorry, all I can say is whatever you do if a motorist is determined to overtake you they will, and all you can do is ride the situation thats the safest way for you to do so.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

awavey wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 12:22am gender doesnt make a difference IME though I dont have exactly rapunzel like trusses of flowing hair out the back of a helmet, but I dont think motorists are going around being that observant anyway checking out peoples hairstyles or gender and drawing conclusions like they need to give the fairer sex cyclist more room.
Actually there is evidence that it does appear to make a difference:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 506001540
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

ClappedOut wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 6:40pm Maybe it is a stereotype issue? Or particular stretch of road encourages behaviour?
I don't think it is even a cyclist issue. What foxyrider described is the sort of thing you often see when people attempt to overtake cars and misjudge how long that is going to take.

The thing we can control by road positioning is close passes (which is the most common problem). if a lane is too narrow to share we can prevent drivers attempting to squeeze past in the face of oncoming traffic by occupying that space ourselves. This means drivers do have to overtake properly and wait for a break in oncoming traffic. We cannot guarantee that they will judge just how long a gap they need to complete the manoeuvre, but at least we force them to think about it.

The faster you are riding the longer it will take to get past and the more likely it is that a driver will misjudge. So this is less of an issue those of us that are slow and unfit. One thing you can do if you notice a vehicle overtaking and it looks like they might run out of road is to slow down yourself so they can get past you sooner - as advised in the highway code.
Stradageek
Posts: 1657
Joined: 17 Jan 2011, 1:07pm

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Stradageek »

Just to chime in again, I have appreciated the range of comments and ideas and will be experimenting with more conciliatory rather than combative approaches.

As has been said, guessing what each driver will do and reacting appropriately every time requires a level of telepathy none of us possess.

However, to conclude on a positive note. The day following my posting, we drove out for a walk in the countryside. I found the drive (mixed rural, urban, dual carriageway) much more scary that the previous days ride. Drivers perform as many, if not more looney maneuvers when interacting with other cars, and both vehicles are travelling much faster than a bicycle.

I'll stick to cycling :D
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

I have to admit that I am more of the 'take the lane' approach than the 'pull over and let them pass', however, there are clearly circumstances for which either could be appropriate, and it is entirely the judgement of the cyclist which to do.

Riding a trike or pulling a trailer leaves the cyclist with fewer opportunities to pull over, unless there is a hard shoulder or room to get off the road, unless the lane is extraordinarily wide.
Pete Owens wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 11:37pm
What you describe sounds like you are being wilfully obstructive. Unnecessarily, obstructing the progress of traffic that could safely overtake, but just for a little bit. Equivalent to driving a tractor along the outside lane of a dual carriageway and only pulling across when a faster vehicle catches up with you and slows down to your speed.
I know that DevonDamo has clarified this, but, I don't in any case see it as willfully obstructive. I see it as getting a driver to appropriately reduce their speed for my safety. I don't mind as much overtaking in limited space when a driver is going suitably slow, so I sometimes use road position to get them to slow down to my speed, then move over to enable an overtake. There might be room for an overtake accelerating from 15 mph that would be far too close at 70 mph.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Marcus Aurelius
Posts: 1903
Joined: 1 Feb 2018, 10:20am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

I’ve learned how to reduce the likelihood of this type of thing happening. If you want to ‘passively’ control, any potentially problematic traffic, gently move about, but never by enough to give room for an overtake. Most straight thinking motorists won’t try and pass someone who’s movements aren’t entirely predictable. There’s a fine line between moving about enough to dissuade a poor overtake, and weaving about so much, you actually cause a bigger problem. The key to it is to move out of primary, sit up, move your elbows out a bit, generally make yourself appear a bit bigger, and move about a bit, move stuff from one pocket to another or something. Usually it won’t have to be for very long, and if it is for more than a short time, it’s possible that you should consider finding a route that’s less likely to require the actions in the first place. That’s not always possible if you’re not on a route you normally have to use.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 12:08am
foxyrider wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:56pm If anything, my recent rides have been plagued by drivers who won't pass when its safe, i find a glance back, no hand signals, spurs them into action, its as though they have locked in to driving at 15mph!
"plagued" sounds an odd word to use in that context.
I think that is the result of the close pass initiatives. Drivers are now more aware of the need to give us plenty of space - and if they overestimate it rather than underestimate it that is entirely to be welcomed.
One of the issues is that by turning down several opportunities to pass they act as a complete block on the road and can build up three or four additional vehicles behind them. The drivers of *those* vehicles then get irritated and assume that the law breaking and poor cyclist at the front must have been causing the problem, when in fact it was the motorist who didn't overtake.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Vorpal »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 2:19pm
Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 12:08am
foxyrider wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:56pm If anything, my recent rides have been plagued by drivers who won't pass when its safe, i find a glance back, no hand signals, spurs them into action, its as though they have locked in to driving at 15mph!
"plagued" sounds an odd word to use in that context.
I think that is the result of the close pass initiatives. Drivers are now more aware of the need to give us plenty of space - and if they overestimate it rather than underestimate it that is entirely to be welcomed.
One of the issues is that by turning down several opportunities to pass they act as a complete block on the road and can build up three or four additional vehicles behind them. The drivers of *those* vehicles then get irritated and assume that the law breaking and poor cyclist at the front must have been causing the problem, when in fact it was the motorist who didn't overtake.
It doesn't usually last long though. I'd far rather have a cautious and patient driver behind me than an impatient one. Or have a driver who is unsure, start to overtake and abort, causing problems for others.

Also, if I see that a queue is building up behind me, I generally pull over when it is safe to do so.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Yeah - I'd rather have a cautious driver, but there are times when they've clearly tuned out completely and aren't actually looking at the road at all.
Quite often the car behind them ends up overtaking them, and then seemingly try to "wake them up" by cutting in front of them... which is where I happen to be.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 2:19pm
Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 12:08am
foxyrider wrote: 20 Apr 2021, 9:56pm If anything, my recent rides have been plagued by drivers who won't pass when its safe, i find a glance back, no hand signals, spurs them into action, its as though they have locked in to driving at 15mph!
"plagued" sounds an odd word to use in that context.
I think that is the result of the close pass initiatives. Drivers are now more aware of the need to give us plenty of space - and if they overestimate it rather than underestimate it that is entirely to be welcomed.
One of the issues is that by turning down several opportunities to pass they act as a complete block on the road and can build up three or four additional vehicles behind them. The drivers of *those* vehicles then get irritated and assume that the law breaking and poor cyclist at the front must have been causing the problem, when in fact it was the motorist who didn't overtake.
It is the impatient drivers getting irritatated that is the problem - or rather the presumption on the part of slower drivers that following drivers are irritated and must be appeased irrespective of whether it is safe to do so.
This leads to:-
- cyclists riding in the gutter to avoid giving the appearance of holding up traffic.
- drivers going faster than they would judge to be safe in order to avoid slowing down a following driver
- drivers overtaking cyclists at unsafe places - not becase they are an agressive moron themselves, but because they assume the following driver is.

So if the close pass initiative is giving careful drivers the confidence to priorotise my safety over the presumed emotional state of other drivers then that is entirely to be welcomed.

And even if the following driver was an agressive moron who resented slowing down then the cautious driver is providing a useful service by acting as a barrier as they approach.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Three or four impatient drivers, oh no [ha ha] :?
Let them wait, if in doubt slow down, drop back, sacrifice a few seconds. Always better to wait if in any doubt
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Jamesh
Posts: 2963
Joined: 2 Jan 2017, 5:56pm

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Jamesh »

Lots of crazy drivers our this week.

Possibly we got used to quiet roads over the past year?

Drivers driving at 60mph in a thirty etc. Cutting across roundabouts without slowing down etc.

Worst of all being overtaken by the otley chain gang!!

Cheers James
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19793
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Pete Owens wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 4:01pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 2:19pm
Pete Owens wrote: 21 Apr 2021, 12:08am
"plagued" sounds an odd word to use in that context.
I think that is the result of the close pass initiatives. Drivers are now more aware of the need to give us plenty of space - and if they overestimate it rather than underestimate it that is entirely to be welcomed.
One of the issues is that by turning down several opportunities to pass they act as a complete block on the road and can build up three or four additional vehicles behind them. The drivers of *those* vehicles then get irritated and assume that the law breaking and poor cyclist at the front must have been causing the problem, when in fact it was the motorist who didn't overtake.
It is the impatient drivers getting irritatated that is the problem - or rather the presumption on the part of slower drivers that following drivers are irritated and must be appeased irrespective of whether it is safe to do so.
This leads to:-
- cyclists riding in the gutter to avoid giving the appearance of holding up traffic.
- drivers going faster than they would judge to be safe in order to avoid slowing down a following driver
- drivers overtaking cyclists at unsafe places - not becase they are an agressive moron themselves, but because they assume the following driver is.

So if the close pass initiative is giving careful drivers the confidence to priorotise my safety over the presumed emotional state of other drivers then that is entirely to be welcomed.

And even if the following driver was an agressive moron who resented slowing down then the cautious driver is providing a useful service by acting as a barrier as they approach.
I'm not suggesting that waiting is ever bad - but when you're on a 50 or 60 limit road, in good visibility, dry conditions and come to a section that's straight for a half mile and they still don't try to pass a relatively slow vehicle despite there being no oncoming traffic... then they're not being cautious, they're just not paying attention.

The biggest issue as a 'bent rider is following drivers trying to "wake them up" by pulling in close in front of them - that's not the fault of the dozy/cautious driver, but of the following one, it doesn't stop it being avoidable if they had made an overtake when it was clearly available.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Pete Owens
Posts: 2442
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by Pete Owens »

[XAP]Bob wrote: 23 Apr 2021, 12:33pm
Pete Owens wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 4:01pm
[XAP]Bob wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 2:19pm

One of the issues is that by turning down several opportunities to pass they act as a complete block on the road and can build up three or four additional vehicles behind them. The drivers of *those* vehicles then get irritated and assume that the law breaking and poor cyclist at the front must have been causing the problem, when in fact it was the motorist who didn't overtake.
It is the impatient drivers getting irritatated that is the problem - or rather the presumption on the part of slower drivers that following drivers are irritated and must be appeased irrespective of whether it is safe to do so.
This leads to:-
- cyclists riding in the gutter to avoid giving the appearance of holding up traffic.
- drivers going faster than they would judge to be safe in order to avoid slowing down a following driver
- drivers overtaking cyclists at unsafe places - not becase they are an agressive moron themselves, but because they assume the following driver is.

So if the close pass initiative is giving careful drivers the confidence to priorotise my safety over the presumed emotional state of other drivers then that is entirely to be welcomed.

And even if the following driver was an agressive moron who resented slowing down then the cautious driver is providing a useful service by acting as a barrier as they approach.
I'm not suggesting that waiting is ever bad - but when you're on a 50 or 60 limit road, in good visibility, dry conditions and come to a section that's straight for a half mile and they still don't try to pass a relatively slow vehicle despite there being no oncoming traffic... then they're not being cautious, they're just not paying attention.
And if the road is that straight they are not "a complete block on the road" and so cannot "build up three or four additional vehicles behind them" since IF it is safe for the first driver to overtake a cyclist (ie leaving as much room as you would a car) - then it is safe for the second driver (whose frustration seems to be of such importance) to overtake the first. In half a century of cycling and driving I have never encountered such a situation as you describe - indeed I have never experienced a situation where the existence of a cyclist on the carriageway has caused any motorist any significant delay whatsoever (and I don't count the odd half mile of twisty country lanes as significant).
awavey
Posts: 300
Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:04am

Re: How can I stop this happening?

Post by awavey »

Pete Owens wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 1:06am
awavey wrote: 22 Apr 2021, 12:22am gender doesnt make a difference IME though I dont have exactly rapunzel like trusses of flowing hair out the back of a helmet, but I dont think motorists are going around being that observant anyway checking out peoples hairstyles or gender and drawing conclusions like they need to give the fairer sex cyclist more room.
Actually there is evidence that it does appear to make a difference:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 506001540
well its not evidence that matches my personal experiences, so I challenge its findings :)

and I dont think that kind of experiemental methodology that guy did works terribly well,as it perfectly demonstrates the second part of what I said, he is claiming he has findings that demonstrate that motorists exhibit behavioural sensitivity to aspects of a cyclists appearance, but unless he captured all those drivers that gave him more room whilst wearing a wig, and got them to replay the same overtake when he wasnt, or got a female rider with short hair to carry out a similar experiement,and repeated it many many times and then maybe stopped the drivers and surveyed them on their actions/feelings, how does he know anything about those drivers motivations for giving him more room, how does he know it wasnt just a completely random happenstance, so how can he possibly extrapolate that as a behavioural trait to all motorists.

It just feels like a confirmation bias in that maybe we like to think drivers would treat women on bikes with more care than men, and so when he appears to collect evidence that backs that up, thats his theory confirmed.
Post Reply