Active cyclist protective driving?

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mikeymo
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Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by mikeymo »

Apologies for the clumsy title.

I drive a lot more miles than I cycle.

Obviously I try to drive carefully, especially with regard to all VRUs. And as I cycle I have some idea about the particular issues of car/cycle interaction.

I don't drive onto the ACL, I keep within the speed limit, I take as long as necessary to clear windows of frost. I actively look for cyclists at junctions. I move my head to avoid the A pillar blind spot problem. And so on.

One thing I do is stubbornly refuse to close pass. However slowly I have to drive, for however long, that's it. No matter how many red-faced maniacs there are behind me flashing their lights or waving their arms.

And there's the thing. If the driver behind me is impatient for me to pass, dangerously, I assume that she would also pass dangerously, if I wasn't there, stopping them. But I am there, stopping them. So it's a double win. I'm not passing close, and neither is anybody else.. I am unintentionally altering another driver's behaviour, to the benefit of the cyclist.

So, the other day I was driving (King's Road in Bramhope, direction from Eccup to Bramhope, for any tykes here).

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8763959,-1.6000588,17z

That part of north Leeds is very popular with cyclists. The road is straight and vision is excellent. The lower half is 30 mph limit. About half way along there was a small group (three?) of cyclists coming towards me. A car behind them edged out and started an overtaking manoeuvre. It pulled back in, presumably when the driver realised they couldn't complete the move. There was never any possibility that they could, at least not safely and within speed limits - I was way too close already.

As we passed I held up my hand, palm first, in a sort of "stop" gesture. Don't know why on earth I did that, as it was too late, but I guess I was trying to say "don't make stupid dangerous moves like that".

A few yards later another cyclist was coming towards me, again with a car close behind, and with the sort of "car language" that I inferred meant they were thinking about overtaking.

So here's the thing. At that point I deliberately positioned myself close to the centre white line (but not over it). So that if the driver did have any ideas about "squeezing through", they couldn't.

Was I wrong?
ANTONISH
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by ANTONISH »

Tricky - but some motorists will go for any gap they can see - personally I wouldn't narrow the gap in the circumstances you describe.
mikeymo
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by mikeymo »

ANTONISH wrote: 3 May 2021, 5:41pm Tricky - but some motorists will go for any gap they can see - personally I wouldn't narrow the gap in the circumstances you describe.
Yes, perhaps. On that particular road, even if I had driven in the (left hand) gutter there would still barely be space for the on-coming car to overtake the cyclist, and even then only dangerously. Whereas in the position I adopted they would have had to drive into the back of the cyclist. My change in position wasn't really that dramatic, to be honest.

Interestingly on the return journey I took a different route, and saw two drivers overtake a cyclist who had "taken the lane". They could only do it by pulling out wide onto the right turn section and cross-hatching here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.847893, ... 384!8i8192

I then became the driver behind him and spent a long 5 seconds or so waiting until that road turns into a full dual carriageway with a cycle track. Yes, and of course when I got to the next roundabout I was right behind them. They gained precisely nothing.
tatanab
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by tatanab »

In this context, what is VRU?

I have thought long and hard, and various acronym searches reveal nothing I think is applicable.
DaveReading
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by DaveReading »

tatanab wrote: 4 May 2021, 7:19am In this context, what is VRU?

I have thought long and hard, and various acronym searches reveal nothing I think is applicable.
Just guessing: VRU = "vulnerable road user" ?
markjohnobrien
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by markjohnobrien »

I too drive a lot of miles and, as a cyclist, am conscious of close passes as the amount of times a car overtakes me (with cars coming the other way) and only just pull back in time to avert a head on collision: meaning they are extremely close to me and my bike when they swerve back in at the last second.

Due to the above, I always give cyclists lots of room.

In relation to your question of staying on the white line, it depends on the circumstances. If someone was hellbent on overtaking the oncoming cyclists and would hit me head on if I didn’t move: I’d move.
Raleigh Randonneur 708 (Magura hydraulic brakes); Blue Raleigh Randonneur 708 dynamo; Pearson Compass 631 tourer; Dawes One Down 631 dynamo winter bike;Raleigh Travelogue 708 tourer dynamo; Kona Sutra; Trek 920 disc Sram Force.
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NUKe
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by NUKe »

mikeymo wrote: 3 May 2021, 3:05pm
So here's the thing. At that point I deliberately positioned myself close to the centre white line (but not over it). So that if the driver did have any ideas about "squeezing through", they couldn't.

Was I wrong?
My opinion is mixed about your actions largely because I wasn't there. but my thoughts are

As driver you are not there to Police the actions of the other driver and you could have made it worse for the cyclist, in that the motorist could have continued for a gap that really wasn't there. ON the other you were just making sure there wasn't a gap to squeeze through.

I think I would have to have been sat in the car with you to call that one.
NUKe
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mikeymo
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by mikeymo »

Thanks for the thoughtful replies folks. Which has given me something to think about too.

As I said, the difference in position between "normal" and "being close to the centre line" isn't really that great, on that stretch of road. Have a look at the Google maps link I posted and you'll see what I mean. I don't think another road user, or even one of you sat in the car with me, would have thought my positioning was "aggressive". If anything I daresay your thoughts would have been something like - "mikeymo's a bit more to the right than I would be".

Actually though, sometimes we are there to police other driver's actions. There's at least one driver who ended up with DUI conviction because of what I did. Though I suspect there are several more. Ditto drivers with unrestrained children. Though these are obviously different situations to the one I've described.
mikeymo
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by mikeymo »

markjohnobrien wrote: 4 May 2021, 8:52amIn relation to your question of staying on the white line, it depends on the circumstances. If someone was hellbent on overtaking the oncoming cyclists and would hit me head on if I didn’t move: I’d move.
If there's such a thing as body language, I think there's also "car language".

I don't think, given the "car language", that the second motorist in the example I gave was "hell bent" on overtaking the cyclist. And if I thought they were, yes, I'd get out of the way. My current car isn't big or heavy enough to make me think I'd come off best (whereas when I had the Volvo...)

But in this case it was more about road position to stop the driver even considering it in the first place. Something like that.
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Ride-sleep-repeat
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by Ride-sleep-repeat »

mikeymo wrote: 4 May 2021, 9:24am If there's such a thing as body language, I think there's also "car language".
Definitely.I picked up on this as a motorcyclist.You sort of pre-empt what the driver is going to do.It's gotten me out of trouble more than once.

Regarding the OP I don't think you were wrong at all.I think the trouble is you will always get that one driver who will still overtake anyway and given the choice between hitting you or swerving into a cyclist they will choose the latter.
Vorpal
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by Vorpal »

I tend to do the same sort of things, driving. If I have an opportunity to actively help a vulnerable road user, I do so. I also generally appreciate the help as cyclist, and sometimes make an effort to 'trap' a friendly driver behind me in a protective position on a long, winding descent. I prefer a van or larger, but I'll take what I can get :)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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freiston
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by freiston »

NUKe wrote: 4 May 2021, 9:09am <SNIP>
My opinion is mixed about your actions largely because I wasn't there. but my thoughts are

As driver you are not there to Police the actions of the other driver and you could have made it worse for the cyclist, in that the motorist could have continued for a gap that really wasn't there. ON the other you were just making sure there wasn't a gap to squeeze through.

I think I would have to have been sat in the car with you to call that one.
But positioning oneself in the lane in order to "prevent" a dangerous overtake is precisely what we do when we take the lane as a cyclist and by doing so, we could "make it worse" for any road user in the opposite lane if the [dangerous] driver makes the overtake despite this. It could be that by driving close to the centre line, the driver prevented an unsafe manoeuvre. I would say that whether one is driving towards the cyclist or one is the cyclist, there is a point when, despite us not breaking any rules and not doing anything inherently dangerous, there comes a point when we judge whether the other [dangerous] motorist is reckless enough for us to give up taking the lane and create the room - this is probably easier done when you are in the oncoming position. I have to admit that I have "taken the lane" as the oncoming vehicle when cycling - sometimes it works, sometimes I'm going to the gutter for safety.

But, as you say, you have to be there to be able to make that judgement call.
Disclaimer: Treat what I say with caution and if possible, wait for someone with more knowledge and experience to contribute. ;)
LollyKat
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by LollyKat »

I was once sticking to the 30 limit with an impatient car behind. As we came round a LH bend the road was clear apart from a pedestrian crossing the road further ahead. I happened to recognise him as a colleague who had MS - although he could still walk without a stick he had no feeling below the knees. I let my car drift out just over the centre line and successfully blocked the one behind, sparing the pedestrian any stress that might have caused him to fall.

LIke Vorpal I also appreciate the protective help I sometimes get from friendly drivers. It seems to happen more often these days. Maybe they see my white hair and think 'poor old granny on a bike - we'd better look after her!' :lol:
Airsporter1st
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by Airsporter1st »

The only concern I have about taking such action as described by the OP, is regarding judgement. Who is to say that his judgement of relative speeds, road width/position etc., is accurate?
What happens if he makes such a judgement call and deliberately blocks a manoeuvre by another, when in fact there was otherwise ample room for that manoeuvre? It could all end badly for no good reason.
mikeymo
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Re: Active cyclist protective driving?

Post by mikeymo »

Airsporter1st wrote: 6 May 2021, 1:11pm The only concern I have about taking such action as described by the OP, is regarding judgement. Who is to say that his judgement of relative speeds, road width/position etc., is accurate?
What happens if he makes such a judgement call and deliberately blocks a manoeuvre by another, when in fact there was otherwise ample room for that manoeuvre? It could all end badly for no good reason.
As others have said, you would need to be there, really. Maybe have a look at the Google maps street view, and read my original post again. I stayed in my lane throughout.

I didn't really "block" any manoeuvre. In fact, to do the opposite, and "allow" the car to overtake the cyclist, I would have had to drive far too close to the left hand side, and even then that would only have "allowed" a very dangerous overtake.

I would describe what I did as "discouraging" a very dangerous potential manoeuvre. Most of the activity was probably in my mind, the change in position wasn't great.

And judging "relative speeds, road width/position etc.," (as you put it) is what every road user does every time they use the road.
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