Deliberate dangerous riding?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36777
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by thirdcrank »

I see that Bikeability Level 3 covers riding on this type of road:
→ Plan a journey
Plan to and ride assertively everywhere cycling is permitted
Maintain suitable riding positions
Cooperate with and respect other road users (including avoiding driver blind spots and riding with others)
→ Pass queuing traffic and use junctions controlled by traffic lights (if present)
→ Use cycle infrastructure and multi lane roads (if present)
Ride on roads with speeds above 30 mph (if present)
(My emphasis.)
https://bikeability.org.uk/bikeability- ... %20More%20

Can anybody add any detail to this?
ChrisP100
Posts: 298
Joined: 24 Sep 2020, 9:00am

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by ChrisP100 »

Mike Sales wrote: 9 Aug 2021, 10:05am I know this road, it is one of my favourite local routes.
I reckon that at times it gets pleasure drivers too. There are not too many winding routes locally with pleasant views of the river, which is usually out of sight behind what the Yanks call levees.
It is part of the Sustrans Hull to Fakenham route, and I often see cyclists on it.

It is paralleled by the B1192 on the other side of the river.

It is a bit narrow, though has room for a car to pass carefully, in my view. I would want a car to slow, and not go hooning past. I would then move over, feeling happy that the driver had registered my presence.

A few years ago a driver managed to plunge into the Witham drowning his children.
Four children killed after jeep falls into river
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep ... insection4

I do not think this cyclist was dangerous.
He was perhaps, annoying or overcareful, but the only danger would lie in the actions of an impatient driver who was provoked. Some drivers have a belief that it is wrong and even dangerous if a vehicle has to slow down for a bicycle.
"After all, if I hadn't braked I could have killed them."

Hellhound is clearly not one of these and behaved correctly.
I was driving towards Coleby on a single track road. It's a bit of an incline, and there was a cyclist ahead of me, not going massively slow despite the gradient. He was in the middle of the carriage way, so I just kept a good 50yds behind him and pootled up the hill behind him. When he got to the passing point he pulled over, slowed right down and waved me through, but I would have been more than happy to just let him crack on.
MikeF
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Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by MikeF »

Hellhound wrote: 8 Aug 2021, 9:03pm Returning to our 'van after a day out we were caught behind a rider on a narrow Lincolnshire road that runs alongside the River Witham.It's a narrow unclassified road about 4miles long.It's a road I've cycled a few times that tends to get little motorised traffic other than Farm vehicles and the odd resident.As we approached the rider he glanced back then moved into the middle of the road!We weren't in any particular rush so I followed at 14-17mph for a mile or so when he glanced back a couple more times but still kept his line.There was no way I could pass without going dangerously close even at 15 mph.I didn't toot my horn,I just pottled along behind at a safe distance.After another 1/2 mile or so there was an opportunity to pass where the road widens just before a little bridge so I did so.I didn't floor it but just slowly accelerated and on passing him got the waving of arms and the finger!
He was on a TT bike(no excuse) and I wonder what the outcome had been had it been a delivery driver or tradesman he'd held up.It was,IMO,a deliberate gesture to stop me passing.Whether he was training or not all he had to do was drift over to the left and a car could pass safely but he chose to drift to the middle of a very narrow road.
No doubt he'd be the first to complain if I'd have forced my way past at an unsafe distance but 'cyclists' like him do nothing to help already strained relations between road users.
So what exactly was the problem??? :? :? 14-17mph sounds a reasonable speed for that sort of road. It was your choice to use it.
I suspect the gesture was because he thought you were harassing him with the way you were driving - too close?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
MikeF
Posts: 4340
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by MikeF »

slowster wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 9:07pm
The National Speed Limit is the default speed limit that applies outside of built up areas. When speed limits were introduced, only a small percentage of the roads network was given speed limits specifically chosen as being appropriate to that section of road. The rest was subject to the 30mph limit in built up areas or the National Speed Limit everywhere else.

Not quite true. There wasn't a national speed limit at that time. The black bar on a white background meant the road was derestricted ie no speed limit. Most vehicles at the time could not travel at anything like 60mph so an upper limit wasn't really needed. Large lorries were restricted to 20 mph anywhere and displayed a large black roundel with "20" in white usually on the offside rear mudguard.
As vehicle speeds rose it was decided, anyone remember when, that the complete derestriction should be limited 60mph. On many roads this was, and still is, a totally unsuitable speed. Why this was done I'm not sure, but it has given rise to the misconception by many drivers eg "Hellhound" that anyone can drive at 60 mph along these roads.
It seems all driving today is mainly governed by speed limits and this appears to be instilled into new drivers who will fail test for "failing to make progress".
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36777
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by thirdcrank »

... anyone remember when, that the complete derestriction should be limited 60mph. ....
See my earlier post and FWIW, the national limit was set at 70mph, which still applies for motorways and dual carriageways. The reduction to sixty on single carriageways came later

viewtopic.php?p=1629730#p1629730
MikeF
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Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by MikeF »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 2:13pm
... anyone remember when, that the complete derestriction should be limited 60mph. ....
See my earlier post and FWIW, the national limit was set at 70mph, which still applies for motorways and dual carriageways. The reduction to sixty on single carriageways came later

viewtopic.php?p=1629730#p1629730
Thanks. Sorry I missed that. :oops: :oops:
All the detail as you always give. :)
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
Pete Owens
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Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by Pete Owens »

thirdcrank wrote: 11 Aug 2021, 7:45pm Just to be thread to needle, I think the diagram 670 (max speed in mph) in this case 60 in a red circle would only be used on a dual carriageway where the standard speed limit was modified ie National limit of 70 reduced to 60, or if there were street lamps, 30 derestricted to 60 (60 on a single carriageway = dia 671 the black diagonal)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/201 ... le/10/made
Indeed so - but the real difference between the two signs is that one shows a specific restriction while the other shows the end of that restriction.
This might seem pedantic, but when you see a 60 in a red circle that just means that someone in authority has made an assesment of that particular stretch of road so in good conditions it might be reasonable assume that it is suitable for high speed. On the other hand the diagonal bar just means that no site specific assesment has beem made and the choice of speed is left to the judgement of the driver. Unless that is a good quality A road then a speed of 59mph is very unlikely to be appropriate.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36777
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by thirdcrank »

I see what you mean but IME that assessment isn't necessarily particularly scientific. I've objected to proposed speed orders which I thought were too high - in one case because I didn't believe it was physically possible to drive at the speed of the proposed limit. All I got back was something on the lines of "it is considered appropriate" without any technical evidence. As the national limit on single carriageways is 60mph, I cannot think of circumstances when the specific 60 sign will be shown there. If I'm right that that sign will only be on a DC - to modify either the national 70 limit or 30 (with lampposts) then it will be only on roads where it's physically possible to drive fast.

I can only reiterate my view that all this detracts from the overriding point that speed limits are merely a legal maximum, not a target; the appropriate speed may be much lower.
fastpedaller
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Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by fastpedaller »

Here in rural Norfolk, we have the crazy situation where some B-Roads have a 40MPH limit in places (justified IMHO), but single-track roads leading off them (with grass down the centre included) have the de-restricted signs. Our former MP (Norman Lamb) was quite vocal about the absurdity of it, however, nothing changed. I shouldn't add politics into the mix, but IMHO he is the only MP I've encountered who was actively trying to do something for his constituents.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36777
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by thirdcrank »

Memory a bit vague but there was a campaign a while ago to change the anomaly of 60 mph limits on narrow roads. IIRC the CTC was quite prominent. The official line for not doing this was that it was too expensive to survey all those minor roads but the idea of the campaign was that single lane roads ie too narrow for a central line, should be restricted in that way.
Bmblbzzz
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Location: From here to there.

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I don't recall that campaign but the view has been put forward on this forum that changing those NSLs into say 40mph signs would act as a target and therefore increases speeds. I don't agree with this (and it need not even involve new signs, it could be done with a change to NSL, though I do think numbered signs would be more effective: including where NSL signs are used on main roads, but that's probably a different topic).
Jdsk
Posts: 24670
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by Jdsk »

fastpedaller wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 5:42pm Here in rural Norfolk, we have the crazy situation where some B-Roads have a 40MPH limit in places (justified IMHO), but single-track roads leading off them (with grass down the centre included) have the de-restricted signs.
Lots of similar anomalies in Oxfordshire, but not necessarily with a smaller road that is single track. I had a vague idea that it might be because the larger road had a different type of designation or a different authority... might there be anything in that?

Thanks

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36777
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by thirdcrank »

Bear in mind I'm referring to roads so narrow that they are either provided with passing places or drivers form their own informal passing places by repeatedly driving onto the verge. Fastpedaller's example of Norfolk is an excellent illustration of this. A case of "Twenty's plenty" indeed it's often too fast there.
=============================

JDSK

What I'm talking about would have been a national limit. ie Just as lamposts = 30, too narrow for a centre line would = 20

It is true that different authorities have different policies.
Jdsk
Posts: 24670
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 6:17pmIt is true that different authorities have different policies.
Thanks. I didn't word that well... I was thinking of different authorities because they were different types of road, rather than being in different areas...

Jonathan
ChrisButch
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Joined: 24 Feb 2009, 12:10pm

Re: Deliberate dangerous riding?

Post by ChrisButch »

fastpedaller wrote: 12 Aug 2021, 5:42pm Here in rural Norfolk, we have the crazy situation where some B-Roads have a 40MPH limit in places (justified IMHO), but single-track roads leading off them (with grass down the centre included) have the de-restricted signs.
The lane on which I live is exactly as you describe. I can leave in three directions from my house, in each case on a narrow single-track lane without a speed restriction, but leading in half mile or so to wider roads with either a 40 or 30 restriction. In each case the entry from the wider road to the narrow lane has a de-restriction sign. This situation is pretty much the norm here in Mid Devon, and I'd say generally throughout the county.
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