Delivery riders - dangerous riding

[Paradiddle]

After the pandemic I've noticed a surge of food delivery riders in London. I welcome the idea but as a pedestrian and cyclist also notice more and more of them breaking traffic rules all the time. Most commonly jumping red lights at crossings and junctions, riding on pavements, riding the wrong way on cycle lanes. I've seen some near misses of them colliding with pedestrians who are crossing on green light or passing other cyclists very closely. More often than not they are on e-bikes as well, some of which look modified. Personally I feel it gives other cyclists a bad rep. Of course delivery riders are not the only offenders but they are a sizeable group in London.

I'd like to understand, especially from food delivery riders, the motivation for dangerous riding and what can be done to encourage riders to ride more safely.
1) Is there some sort of penalty on the riders if they deliver food late? Or encouragement to deliver quickly?
2) Is there any mechanism to flag dangerous riders to the companies or cycling safety organisations? I'm sure it's quite difficult to identify individuals.

I know there's already a sizeable Deliveroo thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103492&hilit=deliveroo
but I'd like to get a view on other food delivery riders as well e.g. UberEat, JustEat.

[Stradageek]

In the past I would have branded these guys not cyclists but Audi drivers on bikes - having met so many aggressive newbie cyclists.

However, having read Julian Syarer's book 'Messengers' I now see that the cycle delivery fraternity is just that, a fraternity, and one that is both downtrodden and very poorly paid.

The manic riding is both to try and earn enough money to live on and a way of gaining a measure of self esteem (look what I can do on a bike!) which society would otherwise deny them.

So, although I don't condone dangerous cycling, I perhaps understand it better.

If we were prepared to pay a living wage to these guys and treated them with real respect, when our (much more expensive) deliveries arrived, the problem would be largely solved.

Spot the socialist revolutionary Cheers Stradageek

[merseymouth]

Hi, If you were hit by one of the law breakers on wheels would you still be as disposed to their behaviour? MM

[simonineaston]

I worked as a motorbike despatch rider in the late '70s. The pressure to deliver on-time and to complete as many jobs as the handler could dish out was high. That was the job. Those who stuck it long enough to learn how to survive could make good money, if they were organised and worked hard. But there was a steep learning curve that involved which rules you needed to stick to and which you could swerve - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Mike Sales]

Hi, If you were hit by one of the law breakers on wheels would you still be as disposed to their behaviour? MM

Whether you survived in order to excuse them rather depends on how many wheels their vehicle had.

[Stradageek]

Hi, If you were hit by one of the law breakers on wheels would you still be as disposed to their behaviour? MM

Good question, but I like to think that the tolerance I have learned from working with disadvantaged kids in Youth Clubs would carry over

I'd recommend reading Julian Sayarer's book and seeing if your viewpoint changes? His encounter with the same policeman dealing with a traffic rather than a cycling offence is to me a sad indictment of society.

[axel_knutt]

1) Is there some sort of penalty on the riders if they deliver food late? Or encouragement to deliver quickly?

They're paid piece work aren't they? Time is money. It would be interesting to see whether drivers paid piece work are more likely to jump the lights.

[simonineaston]

See too claim that drivers working through a third-party, making Ocado deliveries, end up earning around £5 an hour and imagine what that does for your stress levels and then reflect how easy it may or may not be to swap to another company that pays at least the miniumum wage (as if that should be anything to aspire to !!). And finally, reflect on how we end up with such a system...
I note that some very nice-sounding recipes I've seen in the Guardian come with a link that allows me to buy everything I need to make the dish and I imagine that by clicking it, I'm making sure that poor driver gets only his fiver for each hour he works. I'm not going to do that however convenient it is, but there'll be plenty of people who will.

Ocado link

[Paradiddle]

In the past I would have branded these guys not cyclists but Audi drivers on bikes - having met so many aggressive newbie cyclists.

However, having read Julian Syarer's book 'Messengers' I now see that the cycle delivery fraternity is just that, a fraternity, and one that is both downtrodden and very poorly paid.

The manic riding is both to try and earn enough money to live on and a way of gaining a measure of self esteem (look what I can do on a bike!) which society would otherwise deny them.

So, although I don't condone dangerous cycling, I perhaps understand it better.

If we were prepared to pay a living wage to these guys and treated them with real respect, when our (much more expensive) deliveries arrived, the problem would be largely solved.

Spot the socialist revolutionary Cheers Stradageek

Although there are similarities I feel like bike messengers and food delivery drivers are separate crowds. I agree that one of the things we should do is give them more respect as their customers. However the reason I posted this is because as a pedestrian and cyclist it's hard to give them respect when I see bad road behaviours from the riders every time I go out in London.

My understanding is the messenger culture, at least in NYC and carry over to London, is around fixed gear bikes and the fraternity that you described. Personally I haven't come across too many bike messengers perhaps because I don't tend to cycle during the weekday working hours and they may blend in more, so I personally haven't seen any incident or near misses from messengers.

However food delivery riders in London tend to be a slightly older crowd than the messengers. Many with cheaper e-bikes and a drive to get as many orders delivered as possible. I don't think it's a question of fraternity and culture but mostly from a financial standpoint. The cost is still their own safety and the safety of other road users.

[Paradiddle]

I worked as a motorbike despatch rider in the late '70s. The pressure to deliver on-time and to complete as many jobs as the handler could dish out was high. That was the job. Those who stuck it long enough to learn how to survive could make good money, if they were organised and worked hard. But there was a steep learning curve that involved which rules you needed to stick to and which you could swerve - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Thanks for the input. I get that, especially knowing which rules you should follow and which you can swerve. Let's not pretend all rules make sense and I'm sure with experience you also have good awareness of your surroundings and people to also know what might come round the next corner. Also on a motorcycle, it's easier to get fined.

However some of the bike riders I see on the road don't have much awareness of their surroundings. They don't know the roads and don't pay any attention to traffic, let alone signals. At the lights, they stop after the light and wait for traffic to stop. I would still get an earlier start than them because I know the lights.

1) Is there some sort of penalty on the riders if they deliver food late? Or encouragement to deliver quickly?

They're paid piece work aren't they? Time is money. It would be interesting to see whether drivers paid piece work are more likely to jump the lights.

Agreed. From the replies so far it sounds like money is the main issue here but I would be interested to know if a higher pay would affect road behaviour by a proportional amount.

[ChrisButch]

See too claim that drivers working through a third-party, making Ocado deliveries, end up earning around £5 an hour and imagine what that does for your stress levels and then reflect how easy it may or may not be to swap to another company that pays at least the miniumum wage (as if that should be anything to aspire to !!). And finally, reflect on how we end up with such a system...
I note that some very nice-sounding recipes I've seen in the Guardian come with a link that allows me to buy everything I need to make the dish and I imagine that by clicking it, I'm making sure that poor driver gets only his fiver for each hour he works. I'm not going to do that however convenient it is, but there'll be plenty of people who will.Screenshot 2021-08-23 at 13.11.03.png

I couldn't help noticing that of all those you might have chosen, you picked Felivity Cloake's cherry clafoutis recipe to illustrate your point. For the last two years my morello cherry has produced a glut in late July, so I've had plenty of opportunity to work on the perfect clafoutis. The problem I still haven't licked is that my cherries produce so much juice that the batter is flooded and can't rise properly - even leaving the stone in. Still tastes great, though.

[simonineaston]

Still tastes great, though.

Job Done - with or without Ocado

[PH]

There is no "Them" any more than there is when referring to "Cyclists" no secret society or rule book. It's just people using bikes to earn some money.

[simonhill]

I can understand the needing to make money argument, but surely it's basically because they can get away with it. Don't get me wrong, I do sympathise with their pay and conditions, but whether more cash would stop it, I doubt.

Think how many non delivery riders do the same. A bit like white van drivers, these guys think they have the right to push the rules. Yesterday at a busy set of lights, a (non delivery) cyclist in front of me pedalled over the line, waited for a gap and then carried on, against the red light - it was like it was the normal way to do it and often it is.

The is an almost total lack of policing and they run a negligible risk of being caught. Even if caught, penalties are low - no loss of licence.

Then there is the social aspect. They are not worried about flouting the rules and the law. I very much doubt that this would happen in Japan where rules (traffic lights, priorities, etc) are strictly adhered to by all.

Basically, without policing it will carry on probably getting worse with the increasing number of e-scooters.

[horizon]

I did three winter seasons of Deliveroo. Points to note:

1. You get paid per delivery (nowadays that is - it was slightly different in the early days of Deliveroo) so time is money but only in a limited sense.
2. The greatest loss of earnings is caused by lack of orders - hanging around time is the money killer and for which of course you don't get paid.
3. When things are really busy, the greatest loss of earnings is caused by waiting for the food order to be prepared. There is actually little improvement in earnings.

So actually, rushing to deliver has no real advantage except when things are "just right": enough orders being prepared in good time.

A couple more things:

1. Food delivery means collecting food from the restaurants which are mostly in pedestrianised city centres: basically you will be riding on the pavement and ignoring traffic signs, one-ways etc to get to them. You will be a pedestrian on wheels. Your journey to the customer will then be over (or under) the ring-road by which time any concept of the rules of the road has gone out of the window.

2. Most riders are young and foreign. The older ones drive.

3. Many riders now take advantage of the electric bike schemes in cities like Exeter.