Delivery riders - dangerous riding

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PH
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by PH »

Paradiddle wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 11:33am I know there's already a sizeable Deliveroo thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103492&hilit=deliveroo
but I'd like to get a view on other food delivery riders as well e.g. UberEat, JustEat.
As I made clear in that thread, there isn't much difference between the providers, in many cases it's the same riders using two or more Apps, I haven't a lot to add to that post. I objected there to the idea that all these riders can be lumped together and treated as some sort of homogenised group, I still do, it simply is not the case.
viewtopic.php?p=1333262#p1333262
There have been some pandemic changes, though they're unlikely to have effected the way people ride.
Just Eat are rolling out a plan to take most of their deliveries in house, with fully employed riders/drivers, it hasn't happened in Derby yet, but those I know who transferred in another city found it much worse. McDonalds are also planning to offer their own delivery service, though the details are sketchy. Outside of the major city centres, there's now less bikes and more cars, many taxi drivers transferred when their work dried up at the start of the first lockdown, I expect quite a few will continue. Deliveroo have recently started differentiating between bikes and E-bikes, with the latter getting a premium, so much so that I'm considering changing.
I did 7 hours yesterday, 62km, it was fairly busy, I don't think any of the gaps between jobs was more than 10 min, yet it was still less than four hours riding, the rest of the time is waiting, for the job, at the collection, at the delivery... changing the way you ride isn't going to have a huge impact on that.
rareposter
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by rareposter »

Paradiddle wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 1:20pm I agree that one of the things we should do is give them more respect as their customers. However the reason I posted this is because as a pedestrian and cyclist it's hard to give them respect when I see bad road behaviours from the riders every time I go out in London.
I don't think they're after your "respect". In fact, much the same as when I walk or cycle along a street, I literally couldn't care less what other people think of me nor do I judge others as to how much respect they "deserve" from me.

They don't want to hit you - that would cause them to fall off, ruin their food order and cause them loss of earnings.

I did courier work in London many years ago and you just learn which road laws you can be a bit flexible with. It just kind of works. Maybe not ideal but then the infrastructure wasn't designed with flow of bikes in mind so you just ride to be safe to yourself and others while also maintaining as much momentum as possible. There's an art to it - it doesn't mean you ride like a lunatic scattering pedestrians in your wake but it does mean you can be quite selective about things like red lights, pavements, one-way streets and so on.

But the rubbish about "respect" and the idea that respect somehow has to be earned needs rebutting. They don't care what you think about them, they're doing a poorly paid and often quite dangerous job to the best of their abilities and as mentioned earlier in the thread to the constraints of the infrastructure (like picking up from restaurants in pedestrian areas, delivering to blocks of flats etc).
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Paradiddle
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by Paradiddle »

Thanks for the replies from those who have been in the delivery business. This is the sort of input I was looking for.

Sounds like experience and infrastructure are the 2 biggest contributors for riders to not follow traffic rules which I can understand. My main peeve is when I see still see bad road behaviour when there is already adequate cycle infrastructure and riders who are either inexperienced and lack awareness still put themselves and others in danger. I live near the CS2 and CS3 in East London but I still see a lot of this behaviour almost every time I am walking or out on my bike.
horizon wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 10:26am I did three winter seasons of Deliveroo. Points to note:

1. You get paid per delivery (nowadays that is - it was slightly different in the early days of Deliveroo) so time is money but only in a limited sense.
2. The greatest loss of earnings is caused by lack of orders - hanging around time is the money killer and for which of course you don't get paid.
3. When things are really busy, the greatest loss of earnings is caused by waiting for the food order to be prepared. There is actually little improvement in earnings.

So actually, rushing to deliver has no real advantage except when things are "just right": enough orders being prepared in good time.

A couple more things:

1. Food delivery means collecting food from the restaurants which are mostly in pedestrianised city centres: basically you will be riding on the pavement and ignoring traffic signs, one-ways etc to get to them. You will be a pedestrian on wheels. Your journey to the customer will then be over (or under) the ring-road by which time any concept of the rules of the road has gone out of the window.

2. Most riders are young and foreign. The older ones drive.

3. Many riders now take advantage of the electric bike schemes in cities like Exeter.
Thanks horizon, that's great insight. Sounds like there is not that much pressure from the companies to get the food delivered as quickly as possible, therefore breaking traffic rules. Like the others have indicated, this is constrained by cycling infrastructure and also a experience and culture.
PH wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 11:07am
Paradiddle wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 11:33am I know there's already a sizeable Deliveroo thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103492&hilit=deliveroo
but I'd like to get a view on other food delivery riders as well e.g. UberEat, JustEat.
As I made clear in that thread, there isn't much difference between the providers, in many cases it's the same riders using two or more Apps, I haven't a lot to add to that post. I objected there to the idea that all these riders can be lumped together and treated as some sort of homogenised group, I still do, it simply is not the case.
viewtopic.php?p=1333262#p1333262
There have been some pandemic changes, though they're unlikely to have effected the way people ride.
Just Eat are rolling out a plan to take most of their deliveries in house, with fully employed riders/drivers, it hasn't happened in Derby yet, but those I know who transferred in another city found it much worse. McDonalds are also planning to offer their own delivery service, though the details are sketchy. Outside of the major city centres, there's now less bikes and more cars, many taxi drivers transferred when their work dried up at the start of the first lockdown, I expect quite a few will continue. Deliveroo have recently started differentiating between bikes and E-bikes, with the latter getting a premium, so much so that I'm considering changing.
I did 7 hours yesterday, 62km, it was fairly busy, I don't think any of the gaps between jobs was more than 10 min, yet it was still less than four hours riding, the rest of the time is waiting, for the job, at the collection, at the delivery... changing the way you ride isn't going to have a huge impact on that.
Thanks PH for the comment and link to the previous post. I agree that we shouldn't lump all riders into one. That's good to know the volumes that riders deal with, the incentive in getting an e-bike, as well as confirming that changing riding style wouldn't make a big difference in the job.
rareposter wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 11:42am
Paradiddle wrote: 23 Aug 2021, 1:20pm I agree that one of the things we should do is give them more respect as their customers. However the reason I posted this is because as a pedestrian and cyclist it's hard to give them respect when I see bad road behaviours from the riders every time I go out in London.
I don't think they're after your "respect". In fact, much the same as when I walk or cycle along a street, I literally couldn't care less what other people think of me nor do I judge others as to how much respect they "deserve" from me.

They don't want to hit you - that would cause them to fall off, ruin their food order and cause them loss of earnings.

I did courier work in London many years ago and you just learn which road laws you can be a bit flexible with. It just kind of works. Maybe not ideal but then the infrastructure wasn't designed with flow of bikes in mind so you just ride to be safe to yourself and others while also maintaining as much momentum as possible. There's an art to it - it doesn't mean you ride like a lunatic scattering pedestrians in your wake but it does mean you can be quite selective about things like red lights, pavements, one-way streets and so on.

But the rubbish about "respect" and the idea that respect somehow has to be earned needs rebutting. They don't care what you think about them, they're doing a poorly paid and often quite dangerous job to the best of their abilities and as mentioned earlier in the thread to the constraints of the infrastructure (like picking up from restaurants in pedestrian areas, delivering to blocks of flats etc).
My comment about respect was in response to stradageek's social commentary and comparison to bike messengers. In fact the point I was trying to convey was respect is not a way to affect road behaviour in any way whether you're a commuter, delivery rider or bike messenger. So I agree with you. As others have said there is an art to the work and a certain level of awareness. Perhaps with the boom in delivery services there are now just a lot of riders who are new to the job and don't have that level of experience yet.
ChrisP100
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by ChrisP100 »

I was almost t-boned by a delivery rider coming from my RHS at speed as I was making a right turn onto a 1-way street. I was riding on wet cobbles which made my emergency stop a little more dramatic than it needed to be.

They are an absolute menace around where I live (Lincoln); not all but certainly a vast majority. Forever jumping traffic lights and hopping up and down pavements and cutting in and out of traffic. Yes, a lot of them have good bike handling skills, but they never seem to account for other road users or pedestrians in any of their decision making processes.
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Redvee
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by Redvee »

The scooter riders in Bristol love driving on the pavement showing little respect for the pedestrians. There are two locations where they do it, one location will save a few minutes getting back to the location where they collect orders from, the other location saves them no time as it's outside the golden arches place. Any I see and capture on video gets reported to the local police.
mattsccm
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by mattsccm »

I have little respect. If they are breaking the laws and standards or decency then they are beneath respect.
I suspect that this is supported by the idea that I despise the whole industry. The principle is all wrong. It is lazy, uneconomical and environmentally sound.
Stuff peoples choice, there is too much of that about nowadays.
ChrisP100
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by ChrisP100 »

mattsccm wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 6:43am I have little respect. If they are breaking the laws and standards or decency then they are beneath respect.
I suspect that this is supported by the idea that I despise the whole industry. The principle is all wrong. It is lazy, uneconomical and environmentally sound.
Stuff peoples choice, there is too much of that about nowadays.
I disagree that the principle is wrong. It opens up the takeaway food industry to those who may not be able to access the service otherwise (especially in times of COVID).

I do however believe that it has been poorly implemented and is very poorly regulated. As a business model it is very much geared towards maximising profit above all else. This pretty much forces riders to break the rules to make a decent living, and whilst the rule breaking and lack of decency falls squarely on the rider it it the industry that created the environment in which the bad behaviour exists.
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Paradiddle
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by Paradiddle »

ChrisP100 wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 12:25pm I do however believe that it has been poorly implemented and is very poorly regulated. As a business model it is very much geared towards maximising profit above all else. This pretty much forces riders to break the rules to make a decent living, and whilst the rule breaking and lack of decency falls squarely on the rider it it the industry that created the environment in which the bad behaviour exists.
Agreed and this is the main reason I started this thread. It doesn't seem like there's currently any way to regulate the bad behaviour on the road from delivery riders. At the very least, if I understand horizon's explanation correctly, the companies doesn't seem to penalise riders for late delivery. However it is in the riders' interest to make as many deliveries as possible in a day. The only realistic solution seems to be to increase the payment per delivery, but even that won't make a direct impact to bad road behaviour.
rareposter
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by rareposter »

I don't think it's anything new to be honest although it might be more noticeable now with e-bikes and the big reflective square bags they carry.

Couriers back in the 90's were famed for their ability to negotiate city traffic for urgent deliveries - a lot of that business now has been taken on by the digital infrastructure but I certainly remember a time when vital documents, photographs etc were needed on the other side of town - nowadays of course you can just upload them to the cloud. The rise in internet shopping and next day (or even same day in places) delivery has done a lot to kill off most of the rest of the courier industry but it spawned an entire underground ethos and lifestyle of creative riding practices - it's where the old Alleycat races stem from.

Payment per delivery meant you rode it like you stole it and the industry fulled it. The fastest riders got more jobs, the ones who took 30 minutes to ride 3 miles stopping at lights, checking the A-Z (this is pre-smartphone remember!) would make no money and then be fired at the end of the week anyway.

Bit of a catch-22. It's exacerbated of course by poor or non-existent cycling infrastructure, restaurants in pedestrianised areas, the consumer wanting everything NOW and businesses actively pandering to that - we've all seen the Deliveroo / Just Eat ads saying 20 mins from ordering on the app to delivery. That's a VERY short timeframe for the restaurant to get the order, process it, give it to the courier and the courier to get it to you.

Whereas couriers back in the day would be doing it off memory and you'd just learn the routine deliveries and locations, the routes between places and the bits where you could jump lights, ride the wrong way up a 1-way and so on, riders now are following mapping apps and often paying more attention to them than to the road. Courier deliveries would almost always be city centre jobs to businesses so you'd get to know offices but delivering food to random personal addresses could easily be somewhere you've never been before.

I suspect that if people were being knocked over left, right and centre by food delivery riders, we'd have heard about it on the news by now - I'm not attempting to condone some of the riding practices but I can understand why they happen and to me they're more of an irritant than an actual danger. That said when I walk or ride around town, I keep my wits about me and just expect delivery riders to be slightly erratic. Also I'm jealous of their illegal e-bikes, the acceleration on those things can be rapid!
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by PH »

Paradiddle wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 3:24pm However it is in the riders' interest to make as many deliveries as possible in a day. The only realistic solution seems to be to increase the payment per delivery, but even that won't make a direct impact to bad road behaviour.
I'll say this again as you either missed or ignored it last time
changing the way you ride isn't going to have a huge impact on that.
(That being jobs per hour, or income)
You can dismiss this as a difference of opinion, but mine is based on four years experience in three different cities, the most recent delivery about an hour ago. Delivery riders who ride like idiots would ride like that is they weren't delivering, increasing the payment wouldn't change that. They'll do so because they perceive it as easier and sometimes it is. Some may even believe it to be faster, it rarely is and never by an amount to significantly improve earnings. I'll quite often (As in several times a day) be waiting at a light and see one of my colleagues bounce up and down the curb, or find some other way, to ignore or by-pass it, it isn't often I don't catch them up before the next lights. Since I last posted on this thread, I've done four weeks with an E-bike, it's approx 14% faster ave speed than without assistance, it hasn't increased my jobs per hour in any meaningful way. In September I made 172 takeaway deliveries, I think three were ready to collect when I go there, If I'd arrived earlier for the other 169, I'd have just had to wait longer. The only time being faster might make a difference is if the delivery takes you well out of the pick up zone, you're unlikely to be assigned another till you're back, but it doesn't happen often.

And this:
It doesn't seem like there's currently any way to regulate the bad behaviour on the road from delivery riders.
I don't want to play whataboutism, but why single out delivery riders? The state of traffic policing is abysmal, if there were some extra resource is this really where you'd like to see it used? It wouldn't be very high on my list, I feel I'm far more at risk of serious injury or worse from a texting driver, I see far more of them than errant riders. Even if you had a thing against delivery workers, I'd suggest you're more at risk from the scooter riders and car drivers than you are the cyclists.
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by PH »

rareposter wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 5:52pm I don't think it's anything new to be honest although it might be more noticeable now with e-bikes and the big reflective square bags they carry.
Couriers back in the 90's were famed for their ability to negotiate city traffic for urgent deliveries...
I partly agree, but think it's a different sort of delivering and possibly a different ethos. I knew some motorcycle dispatch riders when I lived in London in the late 70's, it seemed a mad world, and a lot of the document delivering was to people poised with a pen in their hand waiting to sign. Those who were known to be faster were assigned more jobs, there's no equivalent to that in the app world.
I suspect that if people were being knocked over left, right and centre by food delivery riders, we'd have heard about it on the news by now - I'm not attempting to condone some of the riding practices but I can understand why they happen and to me they're more of an irritant than an actual danger. That said when I walk or ride around town, I keep my wits about me and just expect delivery riders to be slightly erratic.
This part I agree with entirely.
I know of a rider who ran into someone who then called the police. I know of a rider who was deliberately pushed off his bike by an irritated pedestrian, and I know of six riders (Including myself) knocked off by cars while out delivering, two of them (Thankfully not including myself) hospitalised.
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Paradiddle
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by Paradiddle »

PH wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 7:29pm
Paradiddle wrote: 6 Oct 2021, 3:24pm However it is in the riders' interest to make as many deliveries as possible in a day. The only realistic solution seems to be to increase the payment per delivery, but even that won't make a direct impact to bad road behaviour.
I'll say this again as you either missed or ignored it last time
changing the way you ride isn't going to have a huge impact on that.
(That being jobs per hour, or income)
You can dismiss this as a difference of opinion, but mine is based on four years experience in three different cities, the most recent delivery about an hour ago. Delivery riders who ride like idiots would ride like that is they weren't delivering, increasing the payment wouldn't change that. They'll do so because they perceive it as easier and sometimes it is. Some may even believe it to be faster, it rarely is and never by an amount to significantly improve earnings. I'll quite often (As in several times a day) be waiting at a light and see one of my colleagues bounce up and down the curb, or find some other way, to ignore or by-pass it, it isn't often I don't catch them up before the next lights. Since I last posted on this thread, I've done four weeks with an E-bike, it's approx 14% faster ave speed than without assistance, it hasn't increased my jobs per hour in any meaningful way. In September I made 172 takeaway deliveries, I think three were ready to collect when I go there, If I'd arrived earlier for the other 169, I'd have just had to wait longer. The only time being faster might make a difference is if the delivery takes you well out of the pick up zone, you're unlikely to be assigned another till you're back, but it doesn't happen often.

And this:
It doesn't seem like there's currently any way to regulate the bad behaviour on the road from delivery riders.
I don't want to play whataboutism, but why single out delivery riders? The state of traffic policing is abysmal, if there were some extra resource is this really where you'd like to see it used? It wouldn't be very high on my list, I feel I'm far more at risk of serious injury or worse from a texting driver, I see far more of them than errant riders. Even if you had a thing against delivery workers, I'd suggest you're more at risk from the scooter riders and car drivers than you are the cyclists.
Point taken PH. Apologies I last read the replies to this back in August.

I don't mean to single out and discriminate against delivery riders. Of course the state of traffic policing is terrible and there are far worse issues that need to be tackled first. It's just that if I focus on cyclists as a group of road users, delivery drivers do stand out. Just yesterday I saw a Deliveroo rider make a sudden right turn, cutting 2 lanes and almost got hit by a car. I'm definitely not saying that they're the only group. In London there are lots of youths who are into Bikestormz rides who do wheelies in crowded pedestrian roads, cutting through traffic, going the wrong way. With delivery riders and youths alike, I am concerned about their own safety as well as other road users, especially cyclists and pedestrians.

I suppose the bigger question is how to better enforce road rules for all cyclists. However in my original post I was wondering if delivery companies do enough to encourage safe riding and if not, if there's any good way to improve the situation. As I've already said before I appreciate the input that you and others with delivery experience have shared. Just to be clear I don't have something against delivery workers. I do have an issue against dangerous riding and of course above all dangerous driving.
rareposter
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Re: Delivery riders - dangerous riding

Post by rareposter »

Paradiddle wrote: 7 Oct 2021, 11:26am Just to be clear I don't have something against delivery workers. I do have an issue against dangerous riding and of course above all dangerous driving.
This gets you into the minefield of what is considered "dangerous driving" (as opposed to the other criminal charge of "careless driving")
To get a charge of dangerous to stick, you actually have to be doing something truly insane, often with other factors such as impairment through alcohol/drugs with then cross-references with other charges of drink/drug driving.

You look at the Close Pass of the Day thing on road.cc or articles in the news or on the Police, Action! type programmes and see what gets away with "careless".

Cycling though, there's a degree of opinion/perception in it. Most people who don't cycle would watch a rider and pronounce them dangerous for jumping a red light but ignoring the principles of how and why that might be carried out.

Just yesterday I saw a Deliveroo rider make a sudden right turn, cutting 2 lanes and almost got hit by a car.
I see drivers do that all the time. Coming up to a roundabout or junction, find themselves in the wrong lane and cut across. It's not unique to one subset of road users.

I suppose the bigger question is how to better enforce road rules for all cyclists.
Build the infrastructure that prevents them doing that and/or that removes the need for them to do that. If I'm at an ASL and there's no advance cycle green phase I'll create one of my own so that I don't have an F1 starting grid behind me all trying to accelerate through me as the lights change. Put the proper infrastructure in. If I have a cycle green phase, I'm not breaking any law, the roads have been made safer for me. Otherwise, I'll just make them safer for me and if I have to "jump" a red light by 5 seconds to do that then fair enough.
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