Appeal a Fine?

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UKcyclistnewby
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Appeal a Fine?

Post by UKcyclistnewby »

I just got a FPN for cycling on the pavement outside Hammersmith station. The Hammersmith roundabout is really large and busy without a segregated bicycle path so I feel it is much too dangerous to cycle on the road. There's also a very confusing pedestrian/cyclist traffic light that goes onto the pavement so I genuinely thought I was allowed to cycle there. For the minute or so during my commute that I cycle on the pavement, I always cycle very slowly and keep a lot of space between me and pedestrians. Is it worth appealing this or is it lost money?
ANTONISH
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by ANTONISH »

I wouldn't want to ride around that roundabout either.
The law doesn't allow you to ride on the pavement though - so you should have walked - which would cost you a few minutes.
I don't think you have any choice but to pay up.
Jdsk
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by Jdsk »

Welcome.

I think this is a first post.

Jonathan
DaveReading
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by DaveReading »

Jdsk wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 9:31amI think this is a first post.
Clearly it is. Which of course simply proves that he/she hasn't posted before.
fastpedaller
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by fastpedaller »

I would have a good look again at the location to see if there are any cycle path signs you may have missed. If none, then you'll just have to accept it.
Pete Owens
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by Pete Owens »

You did the crime; you got caught; you got a fine.
Learn from the experience
simonhill
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by simonhill »

You could try claiming the Boateng defence.

From what I've read on here, it rarely, if ever, is accepted.

NB Paul Boateng, ex Home Secretary. FPN won't be applied if road is too dangerous ( my very simplistic explanation).
PH
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by PH »

I don't know what the legal position is, but if you feel it was wrong, complain. If you were on a permitted cycling facility and it came to an end without it being clear you may have a case. If you were knowingly using a footway it's less likely, though I'd still complain on the basis that you ought to be catered for.
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

Can you link to the location on a map or streetview, please?

If I had money for a court case and was sure of my ground, I'd seek legal advice about fighting it and probably see if the Cyclists Defence Fund was interested, else pay the fine especially if any fast-pay discount is offered.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by al_yrpal »

Cycling on the pavement can get you a criminal record I believe. Big problem if you want to visit the USA!

Al
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

ANTONISH wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 9:19am I wouldn't want to ride around that roundabout either.
The law doesn't allow you to ride on the pavement though - so you should have walked - which would cost you a few minutes.
I don't think you have any choice but to pay up.
I don't think you can say with certainty that "The law doesn't allow you to ride on the pavement" at Hammersmith Roundabout. There is a cycle route (London Cycle Network 44 on OSM) which runs along the south edge of the roundabout, mostly under the flyover. It's twisty, convoluted and has several light-controlled crossings, but importantly for this discussion, much of it is pavement with blue signs, what's sometimes called a Cycleway Resembling A Pavement, which is rubbish but most would say still better than riding around that huge gyratory.

It's also not been unknown for the Met Police to get it wrong and start issuing tickets to cyclists riding similar CRAP routes. Queen Street at Cannon Street was one, before the blue signs were added to the bollards to make it extra extra clear that the pavement-filled street is only closed to motor vehicles.

So I'd really like to see on a map where this ticket was issued for.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Psamathe
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by Psamathe »

A couple of links that might help the OP if he/she decides to contest the fine.
https://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/n-a-3319/ wrote:Robert Goodwill, road safety minister, has confirmed that cyclists are permitted to ride on the pavement, as long as they do so considerately ...
https://road.cc/content/news/108119-transport-minister-responsible-cyclists-can-ride-pavement wrote:Minister for Cycling Robert Goodwill has reiterated that the official line from the Department for Transport (DfT) is that cyclists may ride on the footway – more commonly referred to as pavements – provided they do so considerately, and that police officers need to exercise discretion.
...
Mr Goodwill told Mr McCarthy, who had written to his ministerial colleague at the DfT, Baroness Kramer, in December: “Thank you for bringing the issue of cycling on the pavement around dangerous junctions such as Vauxhall Cross to my attention. I agree that the police should be using discretion in enforcing this law and would support Paul Boateng’s original guidance. You may wish to write to Sir Hugh Orde, President of the Association of Chief police Officers, to bring this matter to his attention too."

That guidance from Mr Boateng, issued in 1999 said: “The introduction of the fixed penalty is not aimed at responsible cyclists who sometimes feel obliged to use the pavement out of fear of traffic and who show consideration to other pavement users when doing so. Chief police officers, who are responsible for enforcement, acknowledge that many cyclists, particularly children and young people, are afraid to cycle on the road, sensitivity and careful use of police discretion is required.”
...
I have no idea about courts but guessing aloud, maybe it provides some reasonable doubt ?

Ian
Pete Owens
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by Pete Owens »

fastpedaller wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 10:21am I would have a good look again at the location to see if there are any cycle path signs you may have missed. If none, then you'll just have to accept it.
Particularly if it is like this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4930271 ... 384!8i8192
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

al_yrpal wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 10:40am Cycling on the pavement can get you a criminal record I believe. Big problem if you want to visit the USA!
It can but it is very very rare and I suspect it can't whether you pay or contest the fixed penalty notice. See https://www.acro.police.uk/FPN-FAQs#Wil ... ord?%C2%A0

It is the same criminal offence as driving on the pavement (section 72 of the Highways Act 1835) which is even more rarely prosecuted to the full extent. I wouldn't be surprised if the Met issue more FPNs to cyclists than motorists for this offence, despite pavement driving being far more frequent than pavement cycling.

I'm not sure whether you get a criminal record if contesting it goes all the way to court and you lose, but I'd get legal advice that could inform me long before I got that far!
Last edited by mjr on 25 Aug 2021, 11:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

Pete Owens wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 11:44am
fastpedaller wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 10:21am I would have a good look again at the location to see if there are any cycle path signs you may have missed. If none, then you'll just have to accept it.
Particularly if it is like this one:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4930271 ... 384!8i8192
Whereas these pavements have no blue signs visible but you are allowed to cycle on them:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4912606 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4911221 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4911717 ... 384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4911795 ... 384!8i8192
and this one is comically small:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4909002 ... 384!8i8192

I think the best we can say about Hammersmith is that it's a naffing mess and Cycleway 9 cannot be built through it fast enough!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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