Appeal a Fine?

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thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

I can't overstress the importance of reading the ticket.

Two vital bits of information are
  • Which authority issued it? I presume the Metropolitan Police Service is the local police force here, but as this is directly outside the station, the British Transport Police may have issued this. The importance here is that it's not a matter of police = police because the Met and BTP are quite separate organisations.
  • What specific offence is alleged? You cannot know whether you have committed it unless you know what's alleged
It may only be pedantry on my part but with the type of fixed penalty I assume you have received, there is no formal "appeal" open to you at this stage. You can either make representations to the issuing authority to withdraw the notice on grounds of fairness eg the situation at the location is confusing or doubtful legality eg the wrong offence is alleged; OR you can decline to accept the ticket and request a court hearing.
=======================================================================
Some of the posts on this thread seem to refer to other types of "ticket" eg yellow line parking or places like supermarket car parks.

There's some useful info here, but the relevant bit to this thread is this:
Challenging a fixed penalty notice (FPN)

You need to go to a magistrates’ court. The back of the ticket will tell you how to do this.

You’ll be sent a summons with a date to attend a court hearing.
https://www.gov.uk/parking-tickets/challenging-a-ticket
jgurney
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by jgurney »

UKcyclistnewby wrote: 29 Aug 2021, 3:32pm
jgurney wrote: 26 Aug 2021, 12:20am
UKcyclistnewby wrote: 24 Aug 2021, 6:36pm The Hammersmith roundabout ... without a segregated bicycle path
I go past there on route to work. Where are you coming from and going to? I may know an avoiding route.
Thank you, an alternative route would be great! I'm coming from Hammersmith Rd and going to King St.
Coming down Hammersmith Rd, turn left at the Latymers pub into Collet Gdns, then right into Great Church Lane. This will lead you to a cycle path alongside Talgarth Road (at a badly laid out junction, where 'no entry' signs meant to apply to the adjacent carriageway appear to prohibit entry to the cycle path as well - it is meant to be two-way). Follow the cycle path, to a toucan (pedestrian and cycle) crossing passing under the flyover. Follow this and turn right. You will soon, if looking carefully, spot a cycle path distinguished from the footway by being surfaced with bricks rather than paving slabs, with small inset concrete slabs with little bicycle logos. Most pedestrians do not notice these little cycle logos at their feet and think it is a footpath - ride with care. This will lead to more toucan crossings which will lead you into the service road outside the Hammersmith Apollo. From that, turn left and immediately right into Sussex Place (which looks like a car park). At the end of Sussex Place you will see two bollards either side of a dropped kerb, with a small 'shared path' sign. Ride up there and carry on under the flyover. This will lead to Hammersmith Bridge Rd. Turn left and join the cycle path along it. (Despite conspicuous signs stating that the path on the left is for cyclists and the one on the right for pedestrians, pedestrians keep walking in the cycle path here). This comes to another toucan over Hamm. Bridge Rd. To get to King St, turn right once over the toucan, and follow a share-use pavement towards the flyover. That will lead to two parallel light-controlled crossings, one pedestrian and one a cycle route, going under the flyover. Follow that route and then go straight on along Bridge Avenue (which has a cycle contraflow) then turn left into King St.

There is also a share use pavement along the south side of the Great West Road. If you are heading for Grove Park or southern Chiswick that might be useful. To join that, from the Hamm. Bridge Rd toucan, tuen left to ride along Hamm. Bridge Rd then turn right into Rutland Grove. Where Rutland Grove bends left, carry straight on along a shared use path which joins the Great West Road shared use path.

The route should show up on the map marked in brown (don't know why orange highlighter has come out brown)

Image

Personally, I tend to use just the first part of this, as far as the first toucan under the flyover, and then rejoin the main carriageway to ride around the gyratory from there to King St, unless it has been a hard day and I'd rather weave around bends, pillars and pedestrians than do the bursts of acceleration called for when riding in the gyratory.
fastpedaller
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by fastpedaller »

UKcyclistnewby wrote: 29 Aug 2021, 1:01pm
mjr wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 11:21am
So I'd really like to see on a map where this ticket was issued for.
Thank you very much for your thoughts. The fine was issued in front of the Paperchase here: https://goo.gl/maps/v1n7Xaayqg6QsuXs9.

I've gone back to the spot and found a sign specifically saying that cyclists need to dismount but only in the direction King St to Hammersmith Rd. I only ever cycle on the pavement in the other direction from Hammersmith Rd to King St so I've never seen that sign. I get on the pavement at the toucan crossing (https://goo.gl/maps/Eodn1Ttk1gPby1sm6) which I thought meant you were allowed to cycle there. The "bicycle path" around the roundabout seems to start on the left there so I probably misunderstood what the traffic light meant. I leave the pavement here again (https://goo.gl/maps/f2QPorhkSy9grDGd7) and cycle on the road in King St.
What you've said would seem to be a good defence nb INAL. It would be worth taking photos/video of all the features if you haven't already. It isn't unknown for 'authorities' to change things quickly after the event e.g. fill a pothole the day after someone is injured, thus removing the evidence.
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

UKcyclistnewby wrote: 29 Aug 2021, 1:01pm
mjr wrote: 25 Aug 2021, 11:21am
So I'd really like to see on a map where this ticket was issued for.
Thank you very much for your thoughts. The fine was issued in front of the Paperchase here: https://goo.gl/maps/v1n7Xaayqg6QsuXs9.

I've gone back to the spot and found a sign specifically saying that cyclists need to dismount but only in the direction King St to Hammersmith Rd. I only ever cycle on the pavement in the other direction from Hammersmith Rd to King St so I've never seen that sign. I get on the pavement at the toucan crossing (https://goo.gl/maps/Eodn1Ttk1gPby1sm6) which I thought meant you were allowed to cycle there. The "bicycle path" around the roundabout seems to start on the left there so I probably misunderstood what the traffic light meant. I leave the pavement here again (https://goo.gl/maps/f2QPorhkSy9grDGd7) and cycle on the road in King St.
A strict application of the law (as I understand it but I am not a lawyer) means that you are meant to notice the lack of blue bike round signs there and dismount. However, councils are not at all consistent at using blue signs by toucan crossings and it is a bit crap that the toucan crossing entices you to ride onto a pavement that you may not cycle along. I can see that they want a toucan crossing to make it easier to reach the bicycle parking by the bus station, or maybe even to cycle up to the underground station door, but if they don't want people cycling beyond the bike parking, they really ought to put up a red no-cyclng sign at that point — and in this direction, a no-cycling sign could be legal because you are not allowed to cycle contraflow on the adjacent carriageway (unlike the one by Paperchase which I am confident is mistaken and should be a blue "Cyclists Rejoin Carriageway").

It really is such an obvious desire line, as you can tell by that sign by Paperchase and the temporary cycle lanes, where this section of pavement seems to be the only gap: this feels a bit like entrapment between the council and the police. Hopefully that was not the intent!

What did they actually fine you for? As in, what does it say on the fixed penalty notice?

If "cycling on the footway" then I feel it's arguable (there are no blue signs, but there is a toucan and no red signs) and I would probably argue it up to the point it cost me money. I would also www.writeToThem.com if I lived in Hammersmith and see if my councillor would take up my case and get that bloody mess fixed, and ideally the council to compensate me for the £50 resulting from their incorrect and confusing signs.

If you were penalised for disobeying a compulsory sign (a Road Traffic Act offence) then I feel it should be reversed because at no point did you ride past a no-cycling sign facing you... but like fastpedaller says, go take pics before they fix the signs, although I feel it's clear enough on StreetView.

Good luck!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm not familiar with this area - although I know more about it than I did before I looked at the links on this thread. The official designation is total mess. I've played about with streetview and I think this is the 2008 view of your pelican,

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4930224 ... 312!8i6656

Magnified here to show the "END OF ROUTE" sign in the distance.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4930224 ... 312!8i6656

It looks as though that sign has gone and with it what was a rather vague cycle route across the footway. Within the limits of streetview, once a rider has gained the footway, there's now nothing official that I can see marking the limits of any cycle route.

When deciding your next steps, the watershed is the point when you decide if you are prepared to go to court to contest this.

I've only ever had one fixed penalty - so long ago that it was when yellow line parking was a police (traffic warden) responsibility, enforced through the courts. My car had an intermittent fault and when a (proper) garage was trying to diagnose it, it broke down on double yellows and was ticketed. I paid the penalty to the Magistrates' Court but wrote to the police with all the evidence that it had been in the garage for repair for the intermittent fault. In due course, I received a refund from the Mags' Clerk, followed by my garage invoices etc from the police. Something like that might work.

Otherwise, I think it might be risky - in cash terms - to decline the ticket and go to court. I think that if you were legally represented the CPS would run rather than make a stand but I'm not confident of that.

One key bit of information here is whether your ticket was issued as the result of an edict. It's apparent from this thread that a lot of riders are using this bit of footway and there are two ends to that spyglass: does it mean more enforcement is necessary or that a lot of "otherwise law-abiding" riders have been left confused?

FWIW, a key point for the prosecution to prove in the Highways Act offence is "wilfully." When the legislation was passed, I think that was to protect eg horse riders who horse bolted, but it might be arguable here that genuine confusion meant your actions were not "wilful.". NB, I don't know: it may well have been decided one way or the other at court already. If you have deep pockets and would like a reported case with your name in lights eg DPP v UKcyclistnewby you could give it a run through the higher courts.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Wi ... section/72
thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

Before this topic fades from my deteriorating memory, I'll mention something that has occurred to me about the legal effects of abundant road signs allegedly causing confusion.

We've had a couple of different links (one from York IIRC) where the relevant adjudicator ruled that the signs were unclear even though the TSRGD had been followed. However, as I've explained higher up, there's no adjudicator in a case like this so if the police cannot be persuaded to drop the case, then it's pay up or argue at court.

I have a memory of reading a very brief note of a case involving probably "unnecessary obstruction" on the con and use regs where IIRC it had been held that in an area where there were controls on parking with yellow lines, a driver was normally entitled to assume that parking on a bit of road without yellow lines was OK. I've no idea of any citation details but it will have been in one of the very short notes in one of the tomes like Stone's Or Archbold's which were a guide to looking in an even bigger specialist tome like Wilkinson's for detail of the arguments accepted by the court.

Bus lane confusion thread

viewtopic.php?p=1211282#p1211282
pete75
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by pete75 »

thirdcrank wrote: 27 Aug 2021, 9:33am I think a lot of the confusion with fixed penalties comes from their rather chequered history and the fact of there being several different types.

In this case, we can ignore parking tickets, whether issued for yellow-line contraventions (and red lines in London) or overstaying in places like supermarket car parks. etc. What we are discussing is an alleged criminal offence for which a fixed penalty has been issued. This is an opportunity to pay a fixed sum to avoid the hassle of court proceedings. If it's ignored, the system grinds inexorably on. The days when ignoring a ticket passed all the hassle back to the enforcement authorities are long gone. If the fine enforcement system is ignored, then a warrant will eventually be issued and if the amount owing remains unpaid, it will result in arrest and detention awaiting a court hearing ie possibly overnight in a police cell. Incidentally, that hearing isn't about the iniquity of Paul Boateng's waffle being ignored but only about arrangements to pay the amount owing. After that, the next stage is committal to prison - unless the £££ is sooner paid.

Now, a lot of fines go unpaid, in the sense of the money never changing hand. One obvious example is that if somebody with a lot of fines outstanding is sent down for an offence punishable with imprisonment, then their fines will be "lodged." In legal terms, served concurrently with their substantive sentence or, in practical terms, written off.

Most of the real baddies know that. My advice is addressed to the bourgeoisie.
Britain really is a police state if riding a bicycle on a pavement could result in an individual being arrested and locked up in a police cell.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

What I was hoping - in the interests of the OP or anybody else confused by a layout like this - was that somebody with better IT skills than mine would be able to come up with a citation for the decided case I mentioned. Cycling "provision" has been made in a slapdash manner (or incrementally) with the result that no matter what may be the ultimate situation, we currently have a curate's egg. There are bits which are totally unsatisfactory, like the area outside this station. Part of the problem is the different organisations involved: the traffic authority does the road scheme and the police may enforce it. And here there are two police forces and a lot of the paved area presumably belongs to Network Rail.

On a more general level, it's simply wrong that in an attempt to encourage cycling we end up with a place where less experienced riders will be tempted - feel encouraged - to use an route often very busy with pedestrians.

It's not as though this type of thing is rare.
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 10:43am a lot of the paved area presumably belongs to Network Rail.
I think it will be TfL not Network Rail because it is London Underground with no mainline rail any more (even if NR's ancestors may have built some of the original complex back in the 1860s) and they are at least the highway authority for the adjacent carriageway (as it is a major road).

Still a mess and a botched incremental layout, but slightly fewer organisations involved.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

As always, I'm happy to be corrected. I've made various assumptions - some completely incorrect - during the course of this thread.

I had assumed that the OP had been travelling from right to left seen from the streetview facing the station. I assumed they had approached using what I assume is a so-called pop-up cycle lane which is signed at its start with a temporary sign TEMPORARY CYCLE LANE.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.491363, ... 384!8i8192
This abruptly ends just before the station entrance where the appropriate sign - temporary or otherwise would be END OF ROUTE - but there's no obvious sign on streetview.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4927303 ... 384!8i8192
Unsurprisingly, it seems some riders - perhaps riders newly encouraged by ministerial spin - have used the footway as a continuation of the route. As that's a pedestrian entrance to the station it's hardly ideal for cycling from any POV - but better than the carriageway for a rider only tempted to ride by pop-up farcilities etc. It seems that an attempt to "clarify" the situation has been made by the incorrect use of the "NO CYCLING" sign already discussed. I assume it's assumed that all riders using the pop-up lane intend to cross (by magic) to the pop-up lane where the road forks to the left.

However, it turns out that the OP was riding the opposite way and they had gained the footway using a "Toucan" crossing unaccompanied by any signed route. (See my earlier streetviews) From their account, a number of others had taken the same route while the FPN was being issued.

This cannot be right at any level: pedestrian safety on the footway is compromised; a policy to promote cycling is undermined; and individual riders risk a penalty because of official incompetence.
UKcyclistnewby
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by UKcyclistnewby »

jgurney wrote: 30 Aug 2021, 8:44pm
The route should show up on the map marked in brown (don't know why orange highlighter has come out brown)
Thank you so much for your helpful description and the map, I'll try that route next time!
UKcyclistnewby
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by UKcyclistnewby »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 2:16pm
This cannot be right at any level: pedestrian safety on the footway is compromised; a policy to promote cycling is undermined; and individual riders risk a penalty because of official incompetence.
Thank you very much for your insights and comments and I agree that this is a bad situation for everyone needing cross that bit of road/pavement. I was fined by the Metropolitan Police for "riding on the public footpath" (offence code 508).

I've been reading through the information suggested in the thread and it looks like the police have made it near impossible to appeal a fine without going to court. You can send in evidence to say why you feel the fine was unjust but if they rule the fine was justified, you don't get the opportunity to pay it and are forced to go to court. As such, I am not sure the police will rule in my favour after I submit evidence, so I think it is best to just pay the fine. I do intend to take this up with the council and my MP to make sure this signposting becomes much clearer here.
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mjr
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by mjr »

UKcyclistnewby wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 6:19pm As such, I am not sure the police will rule in my favour after I submit evidence, so I think it is best to just pay the fine. I do intend to take this up with the council and my MP to make sure this signposting becomes much clearer here.
Yes, sadly, if you do not have the money (either personally or from support from something like the Cyclist Defence Fund), that is probably the cheapest option, but I think you will need to contact your London Assembly Member and not the council because it is a TfL-run road not a council one.

Maybe thirdcrank can advise on whether a complaint to the police (as they are punishing people for following confusing signs left by TfL incompetence) is also possible/worthwhile.

I hope that someone you contact will convince the police to refund this unjust ticket.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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thirdcrank
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by thirdcrank »

Re complaining about the police, this has changed several times since I had any involvement but I don't think there's a lot to be gained. In my day it simply put pressure on the officer to explain their actions and in the absence of misconduct it just hardened attitudes.

Remember, this type of fixed penalty is a fairly recent alternative to court, even though before fixed penalties most defendants pleaded guilty by letter under one system or another. One problem now is that if a case at court results in any form of conviction, prosecution costs and the victims' surcharge represent a tidy sum, so paying the fixed penalty may be seen as cost-effective.

Unfortunately, legal representation is probably the key and that takes deep pockets.

A benefit of instructing a learned friend is that they can explore the issues with the CPS before any hearing. A lawyer would also be able to assess the value of putting highways department officials on the spot. For anybody with the £££, the fact of being prepared to contest a case on a genuine point of law, may simply cause the CPS to discontinue the prosecution as has happened with a couple of test cases organised by the CDF. If it did go to court then it's a matter of convincing either a district judge or a bench of lay magistrates. In a criminal case, the prosecution has to prove every element of the charge. As I've already posted, I think "wilfully" may be the part of this Highways Act charge to contest here, depending on the extent of any case law. If a court accepts that the defendant did not act wilfully, then it must dismiss the case.

In the event of conviction there are a couple of avenues of appeal, depending on how the case panned out at court. If it's about a matter of "fact" then the appeal is to the Crown Court and takes the form of a complete rehearing, normally by a judge plus a couple of lay magistrates. If it's about the interpretation of the law, then the appeal is by way of case stated to the Queen's Bench Division. Then the losing side (the prosecution may also appeal on points of law) asks the lower court to "state a case" ie explain the legal basis of the verdict. The QBD is then asked to answer a question, which in this case might be along the lines of "Does the driver of a carriage on a footpath beside a road act wilfully if they have been confused by traffic signs?" NB If the magistrates' court verdict was based on not believing the rider was confused, that's a matter of "fact."

Daniel Cadden's successful appeal against conviction at Telford is an example of a rehearing in the Crown Court.
Crank v Brooks (cyclist on a pedestrian crossing) was an appeal by way of case stated.
Psamathe
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Re: Appeal a Fine?

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Sep 2021, 8:12pm Re complaining about the police, this has changed several times since I had any involvement but I don't think there's a lot to be gained. In my day it simply put pressure on the officer to explain their actions and in the absence of misconduct it just hardened attitudes.

Remember, this type of fixed penalty is a fairly recent alternative to court, even though before fixed penalties most defendants pleaded guilty by letter under one system or another. One problem now is that if a case at court results in any form of conviction, prosecution costs and the victims' surcharge represent a tidy sum, so paying the fixed penalty may be seen as cost-effective.
....
My personal experience with Highways making a claim for £100 where they were unquestionably at fault was they passed it to their legal department who refused to pay, would not deny liability and in practice did nothing except say "no". Si I said I was left with no choice other than take them to court, small claims track when they declared they would send their solicitors to defent their non-payment; even when I pointed out that if they won they'd lose as they can't claim legal costs. Seems a default "deny, deny, deny, ..." and hope the person gets bored and goes away.

But, can the OP put in a formal complaint to the Council about inadequate/incorrect/ambiguous/whatever cycle lane signposting. I'd suspect the investigation of the complaint would take longer than the time limit on the FPN but if the complaint found it was wrong/ambiguous/whatever then OP could pursue the issue after the event with the Police/court. Might not avoid paying the fine but might make a point to the authorities and if complaint findings are ideal then give some opportunity to pursue some counter-claim "I was wrongly issued the FPN and assumed the Police knew what they were doing which turned out not the case ...". But I have no legal abilities so just thinking aloud.

Ian
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