Close Passes & road position

[Bmblbzzz]

The obvious point is that most riders who hug the kerb do so through nervousness, fear and/or caution.

[MikeF]

The obvious point is that most riders who hug the kerb do so through nervousness, fear and/or caution.

Indeed. And they're often slower cyclists, who haven't the ability to cope with the speed of motor traffic coupled with a reluctance to hold up drivers.

[bjlabuk]

I think it is difficult to give any 'one size fits all' advice on road positioning. I am fortunate to live in a suburb, with a national speed limit dual carriageway between me and quiet country roads. The problem is joining the dual carriageway and cycling 3/4 mile south on a sweeping left hand bend to the gap in the central reservation to cross to the other side. I cycle about 0.5-1.0 m from the kerb to avoid the drain covers. I also have a rear view mirror attached to my drop handle bars so I can keep an eye on what is coming up behind me. Most drivers pass me in the offside lane, or at least straddling the lane markings. On Saturday a grey Transit van gave me a close pass at 60mph. I was about to curse the driver but then realised a white car was in the process of overtaking the van ! I don't really know who to be annoyed at most. Neither can have been looking very far ahead, particularly the white car driver, who could have waited until the van had passed me before proceeding to overtake. I can't think that cycling in the middle of the nearside lane would have been a better position.

[Bmblbzzz]

The driver of the white car might or might not have seen you. If they did see you, they might or might not have calculated that the grey van would be overtaking you at the same time that they were overtaking the grey van. And then they might or might not have allowed for the grey van to move out. But so what? You were not in their lane so not their concern.

[bjlabuk]

Difficult to tell from text whether you are being serious or cynical or something else
!

[mattsccm]

Good reply Bmblzzz. If van hid cyclist car may not see reason for possible moving out. Van migh prefer to squeeze past rather than try to tuck in behind bike and thus commit to braking hard. Not ideal but a perfect storm which all we can do is try to avoid. Anyway maybe car was already over taking and van got it wrong. Who knows.
Probably pointless wondering,

[bjlabuk]

Only there was nothing that I could do to avoid the 'perfect storm', and plenty that the two 2 drivers could have done by looking ahead, recognising a potentially dangerous situation approaching, adjusting their speeds (braking if necessary), remembering to give cyclists room, being courteous etc etc. But you are probably right - not worth pondering about.

[Bmblbzzz]

Difficult to tell from text whether you are being serious or cynical or something else
!

It's a problem of the medium. I was slightly cynical and completely serious. Not to justify the driver's decisions but to explain how it probably looked from their point of view. "Not my lane, not likely to come into my lane, not my problem!"

I agree there's very little you could do to avoid it. Well, you could ride in the middle of your lane, which would probably result in a squeal of brakes and a blast of the horn from the van driver. Theoretically there might be a point at which you don't look obstructive but do force the following driver to take notice of you and move out. Hard to find with a 2m wide van on a 3.5m wide lane at high speed.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I will take the lane at pinch points ( traffic islands etc ), I’ll ride in primary at all other times.

I don't understand this... aren't "taking the lane" and "primary" the same position?
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/road- ... -explained

Thanks

Jonathan

No, primary is away from the kerb pretty much in the middle of the lane, taking the lane is just short of the centre lines on the road, just enough left of them to prevent a pass on the left ( slightly further to the right than primary). I’d only advocate it approaching a pinch point ( basically completely blocking a squeeze by, where primary still leaves the metaphorical door ajar) or approaching a right turn ( for the same reason).

[bjlabuk]

Difficult to tell from text whether you are being serious or cynical or something else
!

It's a problem of the medium. I was slightly cynical and completely serious. Not to justify the driver's decisions but to explain how it probably looked from their point of view. "Not my lane, not likely to come into my lane, not my problem!"

No problem. Thanks.

[Jdsk]

I will take the lane at pinch points ( traffic islands etc ), I’ll ride in primary at all other times.

I don't understand this... aren't "taking the lane" and "primary" the same position?
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/road- ... -explained

No, primary is away from the kerb pretty much in the middle of the lane, taking the lane is just short of the centre lines on the road, just enough left of them to prevent a pass on the left ( slightly further to the right than primary). I’d only advocate it approaching a pinch point ( basically completely blocking a squeeze by, where primary still leaves the metaphorical door ajar) or approaching a right turn ( for the same reason).

Thanks.

I found several sources saying that the two terms mean the same.

How do others use these, please?

Jonathan

[Marcus Aurelius]

I don't understand this... aren't "taking the lane" and "primary" the same position?
https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/road- ... -explained

No, primary is away from the kerb pretty much in the middle of the lane, taking the lane is just short of the centre lines on the road, just enough left of them to prevent a pass on the left ( slightly further to the right than primary). I’d only advocate it approaching a pinch point ( basically completely blocking a squeeze by, where primary still leaves the metaphorical door ajar) or approaching a right turn ( for the same reason).

Thanks.

I found several sources saying that the two terms mean the same.

How do others use these, please?

Jonathan

Essentially I’d use ‘take the lane’ to put you squarely in front of the driver, right in their sight line, primary is more right in between the passenger and driver’s seats.

[axel_knutt]

I don't think I've ever seen any research that aims to find out whether motorists are less likely to overtake when in primary position.

Walkers data shows that of those that do overtake, the further you ride from the kerb the less clearance you get, and the more clearance you expect, the fewer motorists allow it.

kerb.png (8.44 KiB) Viewed 307 times

About 87% allow 1.5m if you're 0.25m from the kerb, but if you're 1.25m from the kerb, you'll get 1.5m from only 58% of motorists.

[Redvee]

Had a close pass where I was in the middle of the road and the passenger justified the close pass because of me being in the middle of the road. What the passenger didn't spot was the camera so it has been reported as a collision to local plod as the NS door mirror came into contact with my right hand, not hard but it was still contact and the driver surely should have noticed it too.

[DaveReading]

and the more clearance you expect, the fewer motorists allow it

How do they know ?